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STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
V
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE MATUSOW CASE
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HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE
ADMINISTEATION OF THE INTERNAL SECURITY
ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL SECURITY LAWS
OF THE
sllXrCOMMITTEE 0^ THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGEESS
FIRST SESSION PURSUANT TO S. RES. 58
FEBRUARY 21, 1955
PART 1
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
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59886
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UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON : 1955
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STRATEGV AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMIINISM
THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THE MATUSOW CASE
f\ y 0 ^
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE
ADMINISTRATION OF THE INTEENAL SECUEITY
ACT AND OTHER INTERNAL SECURITY LAWS
OF THE
::;r'c6MMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
UNITED STATES SENATE
EIGHTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION PURSUANT TO
S. Res. 58
MARCH 2, 1955
PART 5
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 59886 WASHINGTON : 1955
Boston Public Lvbrarr^ Cuperintendent of Documsnts
MAY 1 8 1955
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
HARLEY M. KILGORE, West Virginia, Chairman
JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi ALEXANDER WILEY, Wisconsin
ESTES KEFAUVER, Tennessee WILLIAM LANGER, Nortli Dakota
OLIN D. JOHNSTON, South Carolina WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana
THOMAS C. HENNINGS, JR., Missouri ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utali
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arljansas EVERETT McKINLEY DIRKSEN, Illinois
PRICE DANIEL, Texas HERMAN WELKER, Idaho
JOSEPH C. O'MAHONEY, Wyoming JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, Maryland
SXTBCGMMITTEE TO INVESTIGATE THE ADMINISTRATION OF THE INTERNAL SeCURI
Act and Other Internal Security Laws
JAMES O. EASTLAND, Mississippi, Chairman OLIN D. JOHNSTON, South Carolina WILLIAM E. JENNER, Indiana
JOHN L. McCLELLAN, Arkansas ARTHUR V. WATKINS, Utah
THOMAS C. HENNINGS, Jr., Missouri HERMAN WELKER, Idaho
PRICE DANIEL, Texas JOHN MARSHALL BUTLER, A^aryland
J. G. SODEWiNE, Chief Counsel Richard Arens and Alva C. Carpenter, Associate Counsels Benjamin Mandel, Director of Research
U
STEATEGY AND TACTICS OF WOELD COMMUNISM
WEDNESDAY, MARCH 2, 1955
United States Senate, Subcommittee To Investigate the AdministRcVtion of the Internal Security Act
AND Other Internal Security Laws, of
THE Committee on the Judiciary,
Washington^ D. O. The subcommittee met, pursuant to recess, at 2 : 15 p. m., in room 318, Senate Office Building, Senator James O. Eastland (chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.
Present: Senators Eastland, McClellan, Daniel, Jenner, Welker, and Butler.
Also present: J. G. Sourwine, chief counsel; Alva C. Carpenter, associate counsel; Benjamin Mandel, director of research; and Eobert C. McManus, professional staff member.
The Chairman. The committee will come to order. Proceed, Mr. Sourwine.
TESTIMONY OF HARVEY M. MATUSOW, ACCOMPANIED BY STANLEY FAULKNER, HIS ATTORNEY— Resumed
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Matusow, can you furnish the committee with any documents tending to establish the truth of the testimony you are now giving with regard to the falsity of your previous testimony ?
Mr. ]\Iatusow. Some of the documentation, I believe, I have already agreed to, and proof of the material in the book, some of those docu- ments.
I think, sir, some things would have to be spelled out, and I would be able to determine or tell you if documentation exists on some of these charges.
Mr. Sourwine. Xo ; I want to give you a chance to tell the commit- tee on the record about any documentation, the whereabouts of which you know, or to present any. It is understood you are offering your book as documentation of what you now say is the truth. If you are now offering any additional documentation, I would like to have you do it for the record now.
Mr. Matusow. Well, certain documentation that appears in the book, I did not last week bring the proofs of that documentation with me, and the committee requested it, and I have brought that. For instance
Mr. Sourwine. Those are the items which appear as plates or illus- trations in your book ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, yes, sir ; but they were not here last week.
447
448 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. SouRWiNE. You have furnished the committee, however, with copies of the book, have you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. That book is not a part of our record, but is an ex- hibit and has been identified, and has been sworn to by you as all the truth.
Mr. Matusow. I might request, sir, that because some of the docu- ments or copies of them, which I will get the originals of, and forward to the committee by mail, registered mail, of these very documents that I am producing now, do have a bearing on some of the testimony out- side of the book.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Well, you have been requested before now to let us have the originals of any of those documents.
Mr. Matusow. That was a misunderstanding, sir. Last week I said I would bring the proofs, and I thought that is what you wanted.
Mr, SouRwiNE. Now, aside from that material which appears in the book, is there any other documentation of which the committee ought to take notice ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I believe I mentioned correspondence with Mr. Paul Crouch in relation to the Federation of Former Communists, which I liave stated I will submit to the committee.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Now, precisely what is this document ?
Mr. Matusow. Correspondence with Mr. Paul Crouch dealing with the Federation of Former Communists.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Well, now, since it is hoped that we will be able to get through with your direct testimony today, in submitting that material will you send with it an affidavit identifying it that can go in the record with that material that you forward ?
Mr. Matusow. I will do that, sir. (Witness confers with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Mr. Matusow — excuse me.
Mr. Matusow. Sir, will the — my counsel has just reminded me of a conversation I have had with him in the past about whether or not the photostatic copy of such documentation will be sufficient for the committee or if I send the photostat with an original, if the com- mittee will return the original to me.
Mr. SouRWiNE. If you send the photostat with the original the com- mittee will return the original. If you do not have the original and are only able to send the photostat, please cover the situation in your affidavit ; identify the photostat as a photostat of an original, to which you can testify or whatever the situation actually may be.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir ; no problem.
Mr. Faulkner. All we are interested in is getting back the orig- inal.
Mr. SouRwiNE. We are only interested in getting the material before the committee in a proper manner and adequately identified.
If you had had it here today the witness could have identified it and it could have gone directly into the record.
Mr. Matusow. There is one document of which the original is not in my hands, and I believe Mr. Drew Pearson in a column a few weeks ago mentioned that he had the originals of that document, which has bearing on my testimony, and I believe I offered to furnish it to the committee. That is the original of what I show you here, the six
I
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMJVIUNISM 449
handwritten notes from Arvilla Bentley, dealing with the trip to Nassau and the financial irregularities involved there.
Mr. SouR\vixE. That is the notes from your wife that you sold, Mr. Matusow — you sold IMr. Pearson for $250 ?
Mr. Matusow. That is right; he has the originals.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. All right, sir.
You are offering all that material to us now ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir ; these are proofs of the documents which
Mr. SouRw^iNE. Do you want to tell the committee where any other or additional documentation can be found or do you want to offer to , pi"oduce any further documents ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe I have some other material here that the committee requested and that we had discussed.
I have here two spools of wire from a wire recorder that are a true copy of the speech which I gave in Montana — I believe offhand, I don't recall if it was Livingston or Red Lodge.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Does the tape show that ?
Mr. Matusow. The tape does say where the speech was made.
Mr. SouRwixE. And the tape speaks truly on that point ?
Mr. Matusow. From the wire, and it is a true copy of a speech; I believe there was a slight break betw^een reel 1 and reel 2 where a few words were lost, but other than that it is a speech, one of the speeches, made.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. Does the speech speak truly as to where it was made?
Mr. Matusow^ Yes.
Mr. SouR^viNE. May that be received as the next numbered exhibit, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Yes.
(The two spools referred to were marked as "Exhibit 27," and are en file with the committee. )
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, if the witness testifies that there has been a break in the wire recording or whatever it is, how is this committee to determine whether it was 1 paragraph or 50 paragraphs ? I think we are getting on rather dangerous ground affecting the wit- ness as well as this committee, and I merely submit that to the Chair.
The Chairman. It will be received.
Mr. Matusow, did I understand a statement that counsel put to you in the form of a question, that you sold ]\Ir. Drew Pearson some infor- mation regarding your own wife for $250?
Mr. Matusow'. It was not my wife at that time, sir.
The Chairman. You sold Mr. Pearson this information before you were married ; is that right ?
Mr. Matusow. Long before it ; yes, sir ; it is part of the record of yesterday ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. I want to straighten the record.
Mr. Matusow, you have stated that on past occasions you have maligned a number of individuals and have testified falsely under oath, that they are or have been members of the Communist Party, to your knowledge.
I have here a list of such individuals that I am going to send to you and ask you to identify which of them you testified falsely about.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
450 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COISOIUNISM
Mr. Matusow. Do you want me to check tliem or read them ?
The Chairman. Well, you can do either. It would expedite the matter if you Avould check them.
I will tell you, I expect you had better read them into the record.
Mr. Matusow. I would want to read them, first, and make sure that to my recollection they are names which I previously identified.
Mr. SouR^\^[NE. Do you doubt, Mr. Matusow, the accuracy of the chairman's statement that this is a list of persons whom you have in sworn testimony before congressional committees previously identified with the Communist Party ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; but I think it is at all possible for a steno- grapher or typist to make a mistake, and I would like to check that.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You were not asked, Mr. Matusow, to verify this list. You were only asked to read any names on this list who are persons concerning whom you have testified falsely.
The Chairman. Give him an opportunity now to do it, Mr. Sourwine.
(Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. Faulkner. Do you have a duplicate of this ?
Mr. SouRAViNE. We will send for one.
Mr. Faulkner. Will you give me a duplicate of this one?
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, I believe, perhaps, the record should show that a copy of this is being furnished to Mr. Faulkner, the counsel for the witness.
Mr. Faulkner. Thank you.
The Chairman. Please identify the list. It would save time if you would identify that list for the record, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for not having done that sooner.
This list, which has been furnished the witness, is a list prepared and checked by the staff of the committee, and purports to be and, to the best of my knowledge is, a full and complete list of those persons who have been identified with the Communist Party by Harvey Matusow in testimony, public sessions, before committees of the Congress prior to this series of hearings. I ask Mr. Matusow to identify the list which has been handed to the witness so that it may be admitted into our record. (Witness confers with his counsel.)
The Chairman. Are you ready to testify? Are you ready now, Mr. Matusow ?
Mr. Matusow. I will read in the record, sir, the names of the people who I did not know as Communist Party members on this list. I presume that is what vou wanted me to do, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. The question was persons concerning whom you testified falsely.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir: I will start at the top of the list.
The Chairman. I think the press ought to have a copy of it. Mr. Sourwine. May I, Mr. Chairman, proceed with another ques- tion and come back to'this in a moment when the copies are available? Tlie Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Maittsow. Wait a second, Mr. Sourwine, please. (Witness confers with his counsel.) Mr. Matusow. Thank you.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 451
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Matusow, while we are waitino; for additional copies to be made available, I want to see that the record speaks clearly on whether you have any additional documentation that you want to either furnish the committee or tell us about to support your present story as to when you have previously lied.
]\[r. Matusow. Well, you are just limiting it to my false testimony as opposed to my true testimony ?
Mr. SouRwixE. The committee is primarily interested in the ques- tion of the truth or falsity of your statements now or at another time. You are now stating- that you are recanting a good deal of previous testimony', and I am asking about documentary evidence with regard to that testimony.
Mr. Matusow. Just in relation to that ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Necessarily, I do not want to open the door to a production of docunientary evidence on any and every subject that you might want to bring before the committee.
Mr. Matusow. All right. I just wanted to make sure that you didn't want certain material which I might be able to produce in relation to other witnesses against whom I have testified falsely.
Mr. SouRWiNE. We want you to make your own selection of mate- rial which you want to bring to this committee as documentation of what you now say is the truth. If you have any documentation respecting anything concerning which you have testified to that you either want to give to the committee or tell the committee the where- abouts of, please do it now.
Mr. Matusow. I believe, sir, that documentation which does exist I will forward to the committee with the affidavits you requested covering such documentation.
Mr. SouRwiNE. And may it be understood that any such documen- tation which you do not forward to the coinmittee by — when would be fair, the first of next week ?
Mr. Matusow. Sir, I have to be in El Paso, Tex., and I think you want something done which can't be done until I know what is going to happen in Texas and my appearance before the grand jury.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Fix your own deadline. Within what time can vou get that documentation in the hands of the committee ? I (Witness confers with his counsel.)
Mr. JVIatusow. I would want about 2 weeks from the day I return from El Paso.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That is a little indefinite. Would you say
Mr. Matusow. Well, the State of Texas might keep me there for a month ; I don't know, sir.
Mr. SouR^vINE. I defer to the Chair. This is for the Chair to decide how long you are to have.
The Chairman. We will give him a week after they are through with him in Texas.
Senator Welker. Do you understand the Chair's order, 1 week after they are through with you in Texas ?
Mr. ]\Iatusow. At that time I am now to have all documentation that I think is relevant in relation to my testimony.
The Chairman. That can substantiate your testimony.
Mr. Sourwine. All that you care to furnish to the committee or call to the attention of the committee for the purpose of substan-
452 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
tiatino; the testimony you have given to the committee in this series of hearings.
Mr. Mattjsow. All right, sir. I don't think it could be done m a week, but the Chair has ordered so, and it will be incomplete, I am.
sure, sir
The Chairman. All right ; if you want 2 weeks, then
Mr. IVIatusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right ; I will give you 2 weeks.
Mr. Matusow. Thank you, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Can you do it in 2 weeks, Mr. Matusow ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe so.
Mr. SouRWiNE. All right. Then it is understood what you do not submit or call to the attention of the committee when they are through with you in Texas is to be assumed as outside the scope of what you desire to submit to the committee or to have the committee consider?
Mr. Matusow. Well, you are setting up ironclad rules. I will have to abide by them, because that is what you say.
Mr. SouRwiNE. This matter is your choice.
Mr. Matusow. But, sir, I cannot say that 2 weeks and a day after I complete this, something else comes to my attention wliich I over- looked, and I think I doubt if there will be any such thing, but if it is important enough, I will send it to the committee and the committee may decide.
The Chairman. That is all right. Proceed.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Matusow, have you stated that while working in the children's polio ward of a Houston, Tex., hospital
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; I said Dallas, Tex.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Accepting the correction, have you stated that while- working in the children's polio ward of a Dallas, Tex., hospital, you found courage to undo the harm you had caused many persons by testifying falsely against tliem ?
Mr. Matusow. Not quite that simple, sir. I said so in Judge Dim- ock's court, part of an answer which I gave; that is, not a complete answer, sir.
Mr. SouiiwiNE. As a matter of fact, after you had left Dallas and gone to New York, didn't you state and write that you were not trying to undo any wrong that you had done others; that you did not feel the wrong could be undone ?
Mr, Matusow. Are you quoting me, sir ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. I ask you if it is not true that after you had left Dallas and gone to New York you stated and wrote that you were not trying to undo any wrong that you had done others; that you did not feel the wrong could be undone ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't believe that the quote tells the tiling or in substance says what I said in what I wrote, and I know what you are quoting from, sir.
You are leaving out the substance of that preface to — that I didn't use in the book. I think that quote, you will find, on page 2 of the first preface draft.
]Mr. SouRwiNE. No, Mr. Matusow, It is page 4,
Mr. Matusow, Page 4. Thank you.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. SouRWiNE. What did I leave out, Mr. Matusow ?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 453
Mr. Matusow. You left out tlic whole substance of what I said there. You read 2 lines or 3 lines of what, I believe, was 12 pages or 11 pages.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Well, wasn't that the only ])oint at which you spoke about the undoing of w^rongs and your feeling that wrongs could not be undone, and the fact that you had no desire to undo wrongs?
Mr. Matusow\ No, sir; I think, if you will take the last paragraph of that, the quote from Robert Burns' poem, "a man's a man for a' that," you will find out what I meant to say.
Mr. SouRwiNE. As a matter of fact, weren't you told by Mr. Kahn to change your line on that, and to stress your desire to undo, so far as possible, so far as you could, the harm that had been done?
Mr. jMatusow\ Well, I don't know what editorial note Mr. Kahn made on that, because it is very vague. I decided not to use the whole preface, but he might have felt the statement in that was a little ambiguous, and your quoting, as you are, sir, proves to me maybe it is right ; it is ambiguous.
Mr. Sour WINE. Mr. Matusow, were you aware at the time you were giving information to the Federal Bureau of Investigation that it was a penal ollense to give false information to the FBI?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you ever testify that you were paid by the FBI for lying ?
Mr. Matusow\ I don't believe there is any testimony to that extent or to that substance ; no, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Were you ever paid by the FBI for lying?
Mr. Matusow^ Not that I know of.
The Chairman. If you had been paid by the FBI for lying, Mr. Matusow, who would know better than you ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I say, sir, not that I know of. At no time during the present hearing or at any time have I tried to insinuate that the FBI was responsible for any of my lies.
The Chairman. Your answer then is a straight "no;" is it not?
Mr. Matusoav. All right, sir. The answer is in the record.
The Chairman. No hedging.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Chairman, the other day I asked for insertion in the record of a number of items from the Dailv Worker showing: how
The Chairman. That will be admitted.
Mr. Sourwine. And I would like to ask Mr. Matusow, did you read, sir, an article in the Daily Worker of March 1, 1955, with the title "Corrupt Justice Department Bared in Matusow Confessions?"
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
(The article referred to was numbered "Exhibit No. 28" and appears below : )
Corrupt Justice Department Bared in Matusow Confessions
(By William L. Patterson)
Extremely grave dangers exist that the real issues presented to the American people by the confessions of Harvey M. Matnsow will be distorted. These dan- gers are daily being aggravated by the methods now being employed in the many grand jury, court, and congressional committee hearings before which he is called. Undoubtedly there is a conscious desire and intent to obscure the picture.
59886— 55— pt. 5 2
454 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
The spotlight of American public opinion, of world opinion for that matter, must be turned upon the role played by the Department of Justice, that agency of Government pledged to see that due process of law prevails in political trials as well as all others. The corruption of the Department of Justice is the real issue.
The issue is not the mental state of Matusow, nor his avarice and/or his cupidity. The vital issues do not revolve around questions concerning the credulity or incredulity of the Justice Department or of the many judges before whom he testified.
The Department of Justice has been exposed as repeatedly handling all manner of filthy lies, if only those lies could be used to besmirch the character and aims of the people whose convictions were so desperately sought.
The question before the American public raised by the sensational disclosure of Matusow is : Why were those convictions so desperately sought that the Justice Department would act with criminal irresponsibility to secure them?
The question is : Will that branch of Government — the Legislature — which, through its Senate Judiciary Committee, can investigate the Justice Depart- ment's use of perjurers to imprison Americans, call such an investigation?
The question is : Will the conscience of America be aroused to a degree that the demand for new trials will overwhelm all opposition, all cries to hush up these monstrous machinations?
The metropolitan press is seeking deliberately, frantically, to obscure these questions and make the present state of mind of Matusow the center of all in- vestigations. Matusow is an American product, boi'n of the anti-Commimist hysteria that has been the dominant characteristic of the cold war era. Matu- sow is not alone. The Department of Justice would not have been able to secure one conviction without the use of perjured testimony.
The conspiracy charges made by the paid perjurers for that Department were an imperative necessity for such court proceedings, such congressional com- mittee hearings, such loyalty oaths, such Subversive Activities Control Board hearings as have taken place in this era.
It is this fact that makes American officialdom so frantic. Matusow blasts one charge of conspiracy, the charge by which the Department of Justice sought to destroy the constitutional liberties of the people, and at once exposes the terrifying conspiracy of that Department to act as an instrument for Fascist- minded leaders of American life.
Those who create Matusov/ must now seek to revive their artificial hysteria and a new wave of legal terror. The only preventative is the people.
The Senate Judiciary Committee has a historic responsibility. Tell it so. It must investigate the Operation Perjury.
A new trial is the least that should be granted in those cases where the Matu- sows, Johnsons, Bentleys, and Budenzes have pei'formed.
His revelations confirm the need to free completely all those framed under the Smith Act.
The honor of the American people is at stake.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, how many times did you talk with Bishop Oxnam during 1954?
Mr. Matusow. Two times.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Only twice ; that is only on two occasions ?
Mr. Matusow. On two occasions I talked to him. There might have been a phone call with Bishop Oxnam which would constitute a third talk, but not in the substance of your question.
Mr. SouRwiNE, Solely in the interests, Mr. Matusow, of speeding up this hearing in the hope, which is the hope of the committee, that we can conclude your testimony today so that when your attorney undertakes other matters he will not have to come back here with you again, I want to say that while we appreciate the material that you volunteer in response to questions, we will get along much faster if you will try to confine yourself to the bare necessary response. If whenever you feel that it is necessarj^ in your own interest to explain an answer, you may have the chance to do that; but I will attempt in the questions to cover the points that the committee desires infor-
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 455
mation on, and long rambling answers volunteering information fre- quently will anticipate other questions and delay the proceeding.
I hope where you can you will answer "yes" or "no" and keep it to that.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir.
The Chairmax. Mr. tjourwine, go into the names now.
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, if I may interrupt, has it been ordered that the Daily Worker article of March 1, 1955, be admitted in evidence ?
The Chairman. Yes.
Senator Welker. Thank you, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Returning to the list which the chairman sent you, Mr. Matusow, will you name tliose persons whose names apear on that list concerning whom you testified falsely.
Mr. Matusow. I believe at this time, after looking at the list, and not having read the testimony, that some aspect of my testimony regarding each of these individuals, to the best of my recollection now, is false.
The Chairman. That is every person ?
Mr. Matusow. Some aspect of the testimony relating to these peo- ple is false.
The Chairman. Now, what is the aspect?
Mr. Matusow. Well, sir, that is what I asked counsel before, if he wanted me to show where I wrongly identified somebody or did I say somebody did something that the person didn't do, to my knowledge ; there are many aspects to this, sir ; many ways to give false testimony.
Sir, just so'the record is clear on that last statement, there might be 1 or 2 names here that I did not give false testimony about, but at this time, not having read that testimony, I could not be sure of it.
The Chairman. But in some aspect of your testimony, all of these individuals you testified falsely about?
jSIr. Matusow. I believe that it is possible and maybe probable that some testimony relating to each of these individuals
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Matusow. Was false or left a wrong impression in that way being false.
The Chairman. Now, I have had that deliberately released to the press, and it is very imperative that in that state of an answer these individuals be given an opportunity to come forward to defend them- selves. I think we owe it, in full justice to the individuals and also to test whether or not, and in what particulars, Mr. Matusow is telling the truth.
I hereby offer to each of these individuals, in the name of the Senate Internal Security Subcommittee, an opportunity to come forward to affirm or deny or explain the charges as to Communist Party affilia- tion which have been placed into the record by Mr. Matusow.
Proceed, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Returning to the matter of your talks to Bishop Oxnam, sir, newspaper accounts have quoted Bishop Oxnam as saying in a speech at Evanston, 111., that you came to him at a meeting in New York between sessions of something. Do you know what those ses- sions were ?
Mr. Matusow. No. sir; I don't recall at this point. I believe he had some ministerial convention of some kind.
456 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. SoTTRWiNE. Now, you stated before the House Un-American Activities Committee that you met Bishop Oxnam not at a meeting but at a radio broadcast "not knowing he would be there and I intro- duced myself."
Mr. Matusow. That is right, sir. i
Mr. SouRAViNE. Now, what was the meeting at which you met him ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, it was at the radio broadcast, but he was be- tween sessions of some convention of some kind which he told me about.
Mr. SouRwiNE. What was the radio broadcast ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe it was the Tex and Jinx show, Peacock Alley, at the Waldorf-Astoria.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Now, you introduced yourself ?
Mr. Matusow. As I recall ; yes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. How did you know him by sight ?
Mr. Matusow. I didn't. He was — somebody mentioned his name, as I recall.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Who pointed him out to you ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. In Judge Dimock's court, ISIr. Matusow, you testi- fied that you met Bishop G. Bromley Oxnam by chance on the publi- cation date of his book I Protest.
Mr. Matusow. That is right.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. When was that?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall the publication date, but that was the date.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That was the date when you met him at the Peacock Alley show?
Mr. Matusow. I was told it was the date; it might have been the next day that the book was released, but it wasn't a day or so off.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was that the first time you had met him?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr, SouRAViNE. Did you have an appointment with him?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you, Mr. Matusow, tell Bishop Oxnam that you planned a trip to the Soviet Union ?
]Mr. Matusow. Oh, again, yes — not at that meeting, no.
Mr. SouRWiKE. When did you tell him that?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I think I told him that the same day I told that to Mr. Irons at the Justice Department back in June, May or June — it might have been April, of 1954.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You are dragging in some more volunteer testi- mony.
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir; I want to show that the Government also knew of this thing.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, you are testifying about a dead man, don't you know it ?
Mr. Matusoav. David Irons?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes.
Mr. Matusow. I did not know this.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you tell Bishop Oxnam that you planned a trip to the Soviet Union; that is, did you in May 1954 tell him that?
Mr. Matusow. I did not tell him I was planning a trip; I believe I said "I have applied for a visa to go to the Soviet Union."
Mr. SouRwiNE. What did he say to that?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 457
Mr. Matusoav. T don't recall what he said to that.
Mr. SouKwiNE. Did you talk with Bishop Oxnam about your book? : Mr. Matusow. I believe I did.
Mr. SouRwixF. In what state was the book at that time?
]\[r. Matusow. I believe I had done about a hundred pages.
Mr. SouRAviNE. You had done a hundred pages ?
Mr. Matt-soav. In draft; maybe 80.
jSTr. SouRWiNE. Was that the so-called McCarthy chapter?
Mr. Matusow. Only part, about 15, 20 pages on that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. The McCarthy chapter was 15 or 20 pages?
Mr. JNLvTusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. What was the rest of the material about?
Mr. Matusow. The rest of the material dealt with other portions of the book ; I don't recall what I had written.
Mr. SouRWiNE. And did you show that material to Bishop Oxnam?
Mr. Matusow. I don't believe I showed all of it to him.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you show any of it to him ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe I did.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. Why would you show him only part of it? You kept it all together, did you not ?
Mr. ]Matusow. Certain parts were in a more final state and readable,, and other parts were not, and in draft stage, and I didn't show those to people.
]\Ir. SouRWiNE. Did you show him the so-called McCarthy chapter?
Mr. Mati'SOW. I seem to recall doing so.
Air. SouRwaNE. Did you show him any other part of the book ?
iSIr. Matusow. Not that I recall, but it is possible.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you at that time ask Bishop Oxnam for money ?
Mr. JSIatusow. I believe I asked him if he knew of anybody who would subsidize my book ; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you in any other way ask him for money ?
Mr. j\L\TUS0W. I believe I borrowed a $5 bill from him.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Have you paid it back ?
Mr. IVIatusow. I haven't seen him since.
]Mr. SouRW^NE. Have you paid it back ?
Mr. IVIatusow. No, sir ; I was a sneak.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Did you tell him you would be willing to receive $1,500 toward publication of your book by receiving an anonymous tele])hone call from someone indicating that the money would be available ?
Mr. jVIatusow. Yes, sir; so as not to get anybody involved with that book by any such proceeding as this.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Were you to know who the anonymous lender was?
Mr. Matusow. I didn't want to know, and I wasn't to know ; that is right, sir.
Mr. Sourwt:ne. Did that indicate that you knew that anyone who might be willing to subsidize your book might not want it known that he had done so ?
Mr. Matusow. I knew that anybody who might subsidize my book would be persecuted by hearings such as this, and by the press because of the controversial nature of my book.
Mr. SouRAviNE. Was that $1,500 that you suggested an exact amount that you actually needed or was it just a figure you picked out of the air, an amount that you hoped maybe you could get ?
458 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMlVrONISM
Mr. Matfsow. I estimated that $1,500 would cover me for 6 months and subsidize me for that time in the writing of my book.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You asked a lot of different people for $1,500 each; did you not ?
Mr. Matusow. I asked a lot of people if they knew of any pub- lisher or individual who would subsidize me in the writing of that book; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you, Mr. Matusow, make to anyone else the suggestion you made to Bishop Oxnam about an anonymous tele- phone call from someone indicating that the money would be available?
Mr. ]Matusow. I might have. I don't recall now who, if any.
Mr. SouRwiXE. Can you name any other person whom you ap- proached on this matter, to whom you made that proposition con- cerning an anonymous phone call?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall to whom I might have said that to now, sir, no. I think I did say it, but I don't recall to whom I said it to.
Mr. SoTJRWTNE. Was there anything special about your relation- ship to Bishop Oxnam that led you to make that proposition to him?
Mr. Matusow. I didn't make it to him alone, as I have stated, but I don't know to whom else; there wasn't anything about it. I know he didn't like the committees, and would be anxious to see a book of mine, of that nature, out, at least I felt so.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Were you honestly trying to get a loan of $1,500 or were you trying to get $1,500 as a gift or money you would not have to pay back ?
Mr. Matusow. I say it was a loan.
Mr. SouRWiNE. I am asking you if you honestly were trying to get a loan ?
Mr. ]\Iatusow. Yes, sir; I was honestly trying to get a loan.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You intended to pay it back?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. ]Mr. Matusow, how did you propose to pay back money to an anonymous donor whose identity you did not know?
Mr. Matusow. I would have managed it.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Tell us how.
Mr. Matusow. If I told you how
Mr. SouRWiNE. That is a better trick than a stringless yo-yo. Tell us how.
]Mr. Matusow. Not quite better, sir, because the way in which I had gotten the money from the anonymous lender
Mr. SouRWiNE. Had j^ou gotten any money?
Mr. Matusow. The way I would have, the way it was set up in a hypothetical sense — you are asking me a question, now you are going to get an answer.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes.
Mr. Matusow. The way I would have gotten the money from the anonymous donor loaned, would have been returned by the same individual or at the same place that the money was picked up ; quite simple. It had to be picked up from somewhere.
Mr. SouRwiNE. How did you have it arranged with Bishop Oxnam, or what proposal did you make to him ?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 459
Mr, Matusow. We didn't j^o into too much detail at the time.
Mr. SouRAviNE. I ^vant to know what your arrangement was. You said it was the way it was arranged you could have paid it back. I do not know how.
Mr. Matusow. Well, I don't have too much of a recollection about it, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you, in fact, have a way planned for paying it back?
Mr. Matitsow. I said I did ; sufficient.
Mr. SouEwiNE. Well, how, what was that way ?
Mr. Matusow. I forget right now; it is a long time ago; a lot of water has gone under the bridge since then.
Senator Welker. How long ago ?
Mr. Matusow. It was almost a year ago — tliis was March — it was almost — last April or May, so almost a year.
Senator Welker. That was — ]\Ir. Chairman
The Chairmax. Proceed, Senator Welker.
Senator Welker. That was 3 months after you publicly and under oath called Bishop Oxnam a dishonest man ?
Mr. Matusow. No, that was prior to that, sir.
Senator Welker. Prior to ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Senator Welker. Wlien did you call Bishop Oxnam a dishonest man?
Mr. Matusow\ Oxnam, G. Bromley Oxnam; July 12, 19o4.
Senator Welker. July 12, 1954?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Senator Welker. And notwithstanding your prior public and under oath declaration
Mr. Matusow. Subsequent, not prior, sir.
Senator Walker. All right; subsequent, then, declaration that he was, in fact, a dishonest man, you had had a so-called change of heart ; is that correct ?
Mr. Matusow. As I stated for the record, the reason for calling him a dishonest man, and I think the record should show that, sir, was because I believed he had violated a privileged conversation with me. Any conversation I have of that nature with a member of the clergy 1 considered privileged, and I believe he had no business discussing it in public in any specihc — and he did discuss it and, therefore, in my opinion he was a dishonest man for doing so. Let's have the record straight as to why I called him a dishonest man.
Senator Welker. Yes. But you didn't call him a dishonest man because of the fact that he had released some religious conversation ithat you had ?
Mr. Matusow. Sir, I say he violated a privileged conversation, and that was my reason, and that is my reason today, for calling him that then, and I still maintain that any clergyman who violates a privileged conversation is dishonest, a dishonest man in that respect, regardless of who he is.
(Senator Daniel entered the hearing room.)
Senator Welker. You assume if I talk to any clergyman and ask him to lend me $5, and he told someone about it, he would be a dis- honest man?
460 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. Let's get to the core of it, sir. I am not talking about the $5 ; I am talking about the nature of our conversation.
Senator Welker. All right, $20 or $50 or $1,500.
Mr. Matusow. I told him he could release or talk to some of the people about the poetry I wrote. One was about the atom bomb called For Whom the Boom Dooms. I didn't mind that.
Senator Welker. I hope we will have some of your poetry in the record before long, but I believe you are quite wrong when you say that was a privileged communication. I do not desire to argue the law with you.
Mr. Matusow. Sir, I have read the statute book, and I could find it for you. It was brought up before Judge Dimock's court. It shows that any conversation brought up is legally privileged; in fact, coujisel for this committee has agreed, because he wanted such conversation with another which has come up, and he asked me if I was willing to waive that privilege.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr. Chairman, for the record, since counsel has been mentioned, counsel's position with regard to the privilege be- tween priest and parishioner or between a communicant and a spiri- tual adviser is that the privilege entails only when there are no other persons present, and the communication is in the nature of a confes- sion or a request for spiritual advice, and it is communicated at a time and a place and under circumstances which are in accordance with the doctrine or the discipline of the church to which the clergy- man belongs.
No other communications with or from or to a member of the clergy or a priest or bishop or any other church official are in any way privileged under the law, in the opinion of this counsel.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir; but I considered the conversation with Bishop Oxnam at the IVIethodist Building here on Maryland Avenue across the street, in the nature of a confession, and I consid- ered it privileged in accordance with the statutes of the United States ; T forget the title and code number.
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, just one more question.
Had you had any legal advice with respect to the privilege ^
Mr. Matusow. I didn't have any until the United States attorney. Judge J. Edward Lombard, raised the question and quoted the stat- ute, title, and code in Judge Dimock's court a week ago today in relation to a conversation 1 had had with another clergyman which I believed was privileged, and the court held the decision on that until the check.
Senator Welker. That conversation, as I read in the newspaper, whei'ein you actually, at least, attempted to seek religious relief
Mr. Matusow. Well, I considered the Bishop Oxnam discussion of the same nature, in the nature of a confession, and I don't want to go into it, sir, because I still maintain many of the points of that discussion are privileged; though Bishop Oxnam has released it, I have not.
Senator Welker. I did not hear your answer.
Mr. Matusow. The matters discussed by Bishop Oxnam and myself that deal with the nature of a confession or the nature of spiritual advice, I am not going to discuss now, and it is a privileged reason for it. Other matters contained in tliat discussion, the loan of $5,
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 461
I have discussed it. It has nothing to do with spiritual advice, or my book or other matters which I have discussed and would discuss freely. But matters that are privileged, according to law, moral and legal, I Avill not discuss here, sir.
Senator Welker. Very well.
N'ow, you are definite on that, and you contradict our counsel on his view of the law ?
Mr. Matusow. Counsel has said, agreed, when he said any spiritual discussion in the nature of a confession, and so forth.
Senator Welker. And then you hedged around, and went over to the State of Texas wherein you really sought, according to your testi- mony, some religious relief.
Mr. Matusow. I am not going to go into that, sir.
Senator Welker. I am not asking you to go into it.
Mr. Matusow. You have been bringing in a lot of matters that are not relevant to this, my marriage and divorce, and now this, sir.
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, I ask you to direct him to answer the question.
The Chairman. Repeat the question and I will order him to answer it.
Senator Welker. You brought into this matter the fact that you sought religious comfort and relief over in the State of Texas. I am not mentioning the minister or whoever it might be or what faith, but you do not want to leave the impression here that you sought the same thing with Bishop Oxman ?
Mr. Matusow. It is Oxnam, sir.
Senator Welker. You have attempted to claim the privilege on
Mr. Matusow. Sir, all my life, the most part of my life
Senator Welker. Will you answer the question.
Mr. ]VIatusow. Yes, I have. I went to church when I was in Texas, and I sought much spiritual advice from members of my church and clergymen in my church in the State of Texas and elsewhere. I am not ashamed of that, but I am not going to discuss it here.
Senator Welker. Very well.
You know the question. I am asking you only the simple fact: The religious relief that you sought in the State of Texas or elsewhere, was it the same that you say you attempted to receive or did receive from the bishop of the Methodist Church ?
Mr. Matusow. Sir, you are trying to come in through the back door to get me to waive that privilege, and I am not going to do that.
Senator Welker. All right, sir ; I did not think you would, sir.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir.
Senator Welker. Proceed.
Mr. SouRwixE. Mr. Matusow, in court you testified you met Bishop Oxnam at his ofRce in Washington at 4 p. m., on a Sunday, in the spring of 1954.
jVIr. ]VIatusow\ Or it might have been 4 : 15 p. m. ; I believe I said that. I said the appointment was for 4 o'clock.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You said you showed him some paper you had written. Was that
Mr. Matusow. I showed him some what, sir ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. "Some paper," were the words you used in court
I want to find out if the paper you were referring to was the M.-- Carthy chapter of your book.
59886 — 55— pt. 5 3
462 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. Part of the paper was the poem For Whom the Moom Dooms.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did that paper or document that you showed him comprise or include a confession ?
JVA-. Matusow. If any of it did, sir, it would be privileged. I think my activities in the campaign in Wisconsin in 1952 was in the form of a confession at that time. It might be considered so and might not, but if any of it did, sir, I am not going to discuss the nature of it.
I tliink to say if it included this or that or the other thing, I be- lieve the question of privilege — and, as I understand the law, I am in- voking that privilege, which is not the fifth amendment, but a moral one, because I believe that it falls and is covered by the law which deals with that type of privilege, and to explain to counsel any part of that or what I consider so that counsel may weigh it, would be a violation of that privilege, sir.
Senator Welker. One question, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Senator Welker. Is it not a fact, in your testimony you gave yes- terday as a result of the interrogation by our chairman. Senator East- land, of Mississippi, relating to your testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee in July of 1954, you claimed you were telling the truth i
JVIr. Matusow. Yesterday I claimed I was telling the truth when? I am a little confused about that, sir.
Senator Welker. When they interrogated you with respect to the names you had called Bishop Oxnam
Mr. Matusow. That is right, sir, Oxnam.
Senator Welker. I have finally got it right, Oxnam — a dishonest person,
Mr. JVIatusow. I believe, sir, the quote is, I believe I said the quote in the testimony, to my recollection, which is true, that is I said that, and I meant it, if Bishop Oxnam was quoted directly by the news- papers, then Bishop Oxnam is a dishonest man ; 1 believe that is how it reads in the testimony.
Senator Welker. All right, dishonest man or dishonest person.
Mr. Matusow. I said "man," I believe. Maybe I said "person." You are probably right ; you have the testimony.
Senator Welker. Very well. I am not arguing between "man" and "person," but you told the truth then when Chairman Eastland interrogated you with respect to your subsequent testimony before the House Un-American Activities Committee yesterday ?
Mr. ]\Iatusow. In relation to that question, sir?
Senator Welker. Yes, sir.
Mr. Matusow. Yes ; about whether or not I called Bishop Oxnam a dishonest man ; yes, sir.
Senator Welker. Yes, sir; and all the other interrogation that he gave you with respect to your testimony given before that.
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I don't know one way or another, sir. I would have to go back in the record, and you would have to spell it out for me.
Senator Welker. I probably would.
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Senator Welker. But Senator Eastland spelled it out for you com- pletely yesterday.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 463
Mr. Matusow. I don't know how complete it was, but I think the record will speak for itself, sir.
Senator Welker. I think it will.
That is all, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, yon stated in court that Bishop Oxnam said he would see if lie could find a publisher for you. We have asked you questions about that here before, and I would like to ask you if your recollection has been refreshed in any way. Do you know now whether Bishop Oxnam did anything in pursuance of that promise to you?
Mr. Matusow. I don't know one way or another what Bishop Ox- nam did.
Mr. SouRw^NE. Do you know, sir, wdiether it is true that Bishop Oxnam and Mr. Cameron first became acquainted at Greencastle, Ind., while Mr. Cameron was attending De Pauw University?
JSIr. Matusow. I haven't the slightest — I haven't the slightest — sorry.
Mr. SouKwiNE. And Bishop Oxnam was then the president of that university ?
Mr. Matusow. I haven't the slightest idea.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you testify in court that you have not seen Bishop Oxnam since May of 1953 ?
Mr. IVIatusow. Since my last meeting ; if it was in May, since that last date ; that is right, sir.
Mr. SouRAViNE. That is since the meeting concerning w^iich you have here testified, which took place at the Methodist Building and was in the spring of 1954, you have not seen the Bishop?
Mr. IVIatusow. That is right, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Have you been in communication with him?
Mr. ]\L\TusoAV. No, sir.
Mr. SouRAviNE. Mr. Matusow, in -your affidavit in the Flynn case, you speak of contacting defense counsel.
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you by that mean attorneys for the 13 Com- munist leaders?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. What such attorneys did you contact ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I made contact with Miss Mary Kaufman and Mr., I believe, Robert Lewis.
ISIr. SouRwiNE. When and where did you contact Miss Mary Kaufman ?
Mr. IVLvTUSOw. Oh, I don't recall now. In relation to that affidavit, I believe a few days prior to the affidavits being drawn up, but where we met, at my office or the publishers' office, at the Hotel Chelsea, New York City.
Mr. SouRwiNE. AYell, your answer was you do not remember, and the rest of your testimony simply established that fact.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir.
Mr. SouRw^NE. Do you remember when and where you first con- tacted Mr. Lewis?
Mr. IVIatusow. No, sir; it is kind of vague right now.
Mr. SouRw^NE. As a matter of fact, did they not contact you ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, they might have called me after I suggested that to somebody, that they do call me.
464 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. SouRWiNE. Well, that is what I am trying to get on the record. Did you suggest that they do call you?
Mr. I^Iatusow. I think I did. In fact, I am pretty sure I did — wait a minute, let's get the thing straight here. I didn't know who they were, who the attorneys were. I believe I stated to Mr. Kahn at some time and, I believe, I also stated to Mr. Witt, after I signed an affidavit in behalf of his client, Clinton Jencks, that he see, he inquire, as to whether the attorneys for the Communist Party leaders Avould like an affidavit, because I am willing to give one to them, and then who contacted who is a little vague at that point.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Haven't you stated ; haven't you, as a matter of fact, testified that — let me rephrase that question, Mr. Chairman.
(Senator McClellan and Senator Butler left the committee room.)
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. SoiTRwiNE. Haven't you, as a matter of fact, testified that Mr. Kalm broached this matter to you ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I don't Imow if that testimony exists. I don't know how it is worded.
Mr. SouRWiNE. What was the fact? Did Mr. Kahn broach this matter to you ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall now if Mr. Kahn said "Are you will- ins; to give an affidavit" or if I said to him 'Well, Mr. Kahn" — I didn't call him "Mr. Kahn"; we were kind of friendly; I said, "Al, I am ready to give an affidavit to the defendants in the Smith Act case where I testified falsely."
Mr. SouRWiNE. Mr.' Matusow, did you receive any money or other remuneration from any of these attorneys for the 13 Comnmnist leaders ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you receive, directly or indirectly, any money or other remuneration from any organization of a Communist char- acter in 1954, or so far this year ?
Mr. Matusow. So far as I know, I have received no money from any Communist organization; and, for all I know, the taxes I pay or the Communist Party members pay might be the money that this committee pays me; that could be indirectly; but other than that I don't know of any.
The Chairman. Is the firm of Cameron & Kahn a Commimist organization?
Mr. Matusow. Not in my opinion, sir.
Mr, SouRw^iNE. Mr. Matusow, how did you happen to select your present counsel ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe the record speaks for itself; but I will repeat it for you if you would like, sir. I was served with a subpena to appear before the grand jury, and I believe that Mr. Kahn, at my suggestion, or at our mutual agreement, contacted Mr. Nathan Witt, and called him and told him of the grand-jury subpena because he had an interest in this case, because I was due to testify in behalf of his client who I had once falsely accused of being a Communist; and I believe Mr. Kahn also contacted the attorneys for the Communist Party leaders who are also interested in this case because of my testi- mony which was due in Judge Dimock's court; and Mr. Witt and, I believe, Miss Kaufman — I don't know if she was there — went down to Judge Dimock's court, and in that conversation, I believe, I sug-
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM . 465
jested to Mr. Kalin and to Mr. Witt that Mr. Witt see if he can secure counsel for me, because in this day and age
The Chairman. The answer/then, is that your counsel, whether it is material or not, was selected by Mr. Nathan Witt; is that correct?
]Mr. ]\Iati:tsow. At my request, sir.
The Chairman. Yes, sir.
Mr. ]\L\Tusow. Yes, sir.
The CiiAHiMAN. At your request ?
Mr. J\L\Tusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Now proceed.
JNIr. SouRwiNE. Are you paying him anything yourself, that is, vour counsel ?
Mr. jMatusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SoTTRwiNE. Has anyone else agreed to pay him anything, to your knowledge, for his service to you or in connection with your case?
Mr. Matusow. Well, there is an agreement in relation to this be- tween my publishers and myself, which is not any business of counsel's, and he doesn't know about it, but Mr. Cameron, Mr. Kahn, and myself have decided that all legal fees incurred due to the publication of this book will be shared jointly by Cameron, Kahn, and myself.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Are you, Mr. Matusow, Mr. Faulkner's client or are you and Mr. Cameron together his clients or is he only serving you as attorney for Cameron & Kahn ?
Mr. Matusow. He is serving me as attorney for me. What his relationship is with Cameron & Kahn, that is the business of Cameron & Kahn and Mr. Faulkner.
Mr. SouRWiNE. But you do not consider that you and the firm of Cameron & Kahn or you and Mr. Cameron or you and Mr. Kahn or you and the two of them together are jointly the clients of Mr. Faulkner ?
Mr. JMatusow. I believe our arrangement is we are his clients separately but, of course, certain matters relating to this committee hearing and others, we have a mutual interest involved here and at times discuss — at least I do — with Mr. Cameron and Kahn, matters pertaining to testimony before this committee.
The Chairman. Proceed.
Mr. Matusow. Sir, if I might — I would like the record to be straight on the question of counsel and Mr. Faulkner, and I think it is very important in that answer as to why Mr. Witt, I asked Mr. Witt, to get me counsel.
The Chairman. All right, sir.
Mr. Matusow. I believe at the time that because I was such a con- troversial person that, in this day, the American Bar, members of the bar, the conservative elements of the bar, are no longer going out and defending unpopular causes, as I considered myself and my present position, which is not part of the American tradition, and that tliere were very few attorneys in the United States who today come to the defense of what I call the unpopular cause such as my present cause. Mr. Faulkner, I believe, is a very courageous attorney taking such a position to defend such cause as the one 1 am engaged in right now. Thank you.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Don't you know the American Bar Association has set up a special committee to provide counsel for unpopular causes?
466 . STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. This might be the case, but I have not been informed of it. But in the past, Ilarvard Law School, during the Sacco-Van- zetti days, conservative elements
The Chairman. Wait just a minute.
Mr. Matusow. I don't want to get into an argument.
The Chairman. Wait just a minute. This question is getting
Mr. Matusow. I just wanted to make a statement in behalf of my counsel, and I appreciated it.
The Chairman. I understand that, sir, and I do not think the question has anything to do with it. Let us go.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Is your attorney the same Faulkner who defended Irving Peress?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Is he the same Stanley Faulkner who was attorney for Marvin Belsky ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe so, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you know that your attorney, Mr. Faulkner, shared offices with Nathan Witt ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. That is in the record.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That is right.
Mr. Faulkner. I think
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you know Albert E. Kahn as a member of the Comnmnist Party ?
The Chairman. Just a minute.
Mr. Faulkner. I think the person who knows best about sharing would be myself, and I think the word "share" may have wrong connotation.
The Chairman. State what the facts are for the record.
Mr. Faulkner. The facts are that we each independently
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Faulkner (continuing) . Rent space in the same office building on the same floor, but we do not share the same single office.
Senator Daniel. Do you share the same suite of offices ?
Mr. Faulkner. Yes. Mr. Witt, myself, and many other attorneys.
Senator Daniel. Yes. You have tlie same waiting room ?
Mr. Faulkner. Same waiting room.
Senator Daniel. And the same library?
Mr. Faulkner. Same library, and independent libraries in our own offices.
Senator Daniel. Yes. But you share one general library?
Mr. Faulkner. That is right. We all pay our sliare toward the upkeep of a library.
Senator Daniel. So your office is in the same suite of offices?
Mr. Faulkner. That is correct.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Matusow, did you or do you know Albert E. Kahn as a member of the Communist Party?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know him as a writer of Communist publications ? Mr. Matusow. ^^^lat do you mean by Communist publications?
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know Mr. Kahn as a writer of publications carrying out the Communist party line ?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COlVrMTTNISM 467
'J 5
Mr. Matusow. I know Mr. Kahn is a writer of, you might say leftwing publications or unpopular cause publications today.
Mr. SoTTRwiNE. That does not answer the question.
Mr. Matusow. Well, sir, I don't know what the Communist party line is at this point. , • o
Mr. SouRwiNE. Then your answer will have to be "No," wont it?
Mr. Matusow. It is a very broad thing, this Communist party line ; my answer is, no,
INIr. SouRWiNE. If you do not know what the Communist party line is, necessarily you do not know Mr. Kahn as a writer of publications which carry out the Communist party line ; isn't that true'^
Mr. jNIatusow. That is right, sir.
Mr. Sourwint:. Then your answer is you do not know Mr. Kahn as a writer of books carrying out the Communist party line?
INIr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you know
Mr. Matusow. The answer is no.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you know Mr. Kahn as a writer of books sold by you in Communist Party bookstores ?
Mr. Matusow. I know Mr. Kahn was a writer of books that I have sold when I worked in Communist bookshops, along with non-Com- munist books and pro-Communist books, and anti-Communist books.
Mr. SouRwixE. You testified, Mr. Matusow, that you saw Mr. Kahn when he participated in a meeting conducted by the Council of Ameri- can-Soviet Friendship. Was that a Communist-dominated meeting?
Mr. Matusow. Dominated by the Council of American-Soviet Friendship is all I know.
Mr. SouR"\viNE. Is that organization dominated by the Communist Party United States of America ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe the Attorney General is trying to find that out today ; I have no opinion about it. The case is before the courts on that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you first meet Mr. Kahn in the Communist Party?
Mr. Matusow. I was a member of the Communist Party when I first saw Mr. Kahn.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Have you stated that you met him as a party mem- ber?
Mr. Matusoav. I have sworn under oath in June, I believe, June 2, or 4, 1954, that I knew Albert E. Kahn as a Communist Party member, but I gave false testimony then.
Mr, SouRwiNE. Did you, in fact, ever attend Communist Party meetings with him ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You have testified that you spent the night on one occasion at his home on Glengary Road, Croton-on-Hudson, N. Y. ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe I testified that I spent many nights there.
Mr. SouRwixE. Have you spent many nights there during the past 6 weeks ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I don't know, a half dozen, maybe a dozen.
Mr. SouRWixE. You spent the night of Thursday, February 3, there and then drove into New York City with Mr. Kahn in the morning.
468 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. It might have been or I might have spent the night of Wednesday, February 2 there, and drove in ; I don't recall the date, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Well, yon drove into New York with Mr. Kahn in a blue Buick, 1949 on the morning of the day on which you were served with a subpena by this committee: is that right?
Mr. Matusow. I believe he drives a green Buick, but it is possible.
The Chairman. Mr. Matusow, I want to ask you this question.
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You know Mr. Carl Marzani ?
Mr. Matusow. I have met him within the last few weeks, sir.
The Chairman. Yes, sir ; have you been with him in Washington ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir; unless he was in Washington in 1948 when about 10,000 people came down to lobby against the Mundt-Nixon bill. He might have been there then, but I don't know.
The Chairman. Who is Mr. Marzani ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, he is one of the people associated with the con- cern of Cameron Associates ; and committee counsel informed me that, I presume, that what counsel said, he was an officer of Liberty Book Club, but I know not of my own knowledge.
The Chairman. He is the acting editor of the March of Labor pub- lication, is he not ?
Mr. Matusow. Very possible, sir ; I don't know. I don't read the publication, am not familiar with it.
The Chairman. At one time the publicity director of UE ?
Mr. Matusow. I was never a member of UE, and I have no knowl- edge of that.
The Chairman. But the question I want to ask you now — and I want you to think — is, have you talked to Mr. Carl Marzani in Wash- ington within the past 10 days ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed, Mr. Sourwine.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Matusow
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one question to tie up a little testimony with respect to Bishop Oxnam. On page 846 of the hearing of the Communist activities among young groups, held in Washington, D. C, 83d Congress, 2d session, on July 12, 1954, I will ask you if it is not a fact that you were asked by Mr. Scherer this question :
If the bishop was correctly reported by the newspapers, did he tell the truth?
And you answered
The Chairman. The question was, the question asked him was:
Did the bishop tell the truth as the newspapers quoted him directly?
Senator Welker. That is right. You answered :
If he is correctly reported by the newspaper the bishop is a dishonest man.
Mr. Matusow. That is what I said before, sir.
Senator Welker. Well, you didn't have anything to say about the first question, did you, as to whether or not the bishop told the truth?
Mr. Matusow. The record speaks for itself, sir.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 469
Senator IVelker. Well, now, whatever the record speaks, I am interrogating you now as to whether or not you did so testify when that question was propounded to you.
Mr. Matusow. As I said, sir, I referred to the bishop as a dishonest man for violating a privileged conversation.
The Chairman. You mean to say now that the record shows that when the question that you replied to now, did the bishop tell the truth
Mr. Matusow. Sir, Senator Welker asked me what did I reply to. I haven't read that testimony. If I find something in that testi- mony which says that I said that Bishop Oxnam told a lie, then I apparently said it; but at this time I have no recollection of such statements.
Senator Welker. I am merely asking you what counsel, Mr. Scherer, asked you.
Mr. Matusow. He wasn't counsel; I believe he was Congressman Sclierer, Gordon Scherer.
Senator Welker. The question was :
If the bishop was correctly reported by the newspapers did he tell the truth? and your answer :
If he was correctly reported by the newspapers the bishop is a dishonest man.
Mr. IVLltusow. That is right, sir ; that is my answer.
Senator Welker. That, out West and most generally, is accepted as calling the bishop a liar, isn't that a fact ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't know how you accept it or other people accept it ; I told you how I meant it. All I can tell you is my intent.
Senator Welker. Now, I will rely upon your favorite statement; the record will speak for itself.
Mr. IVIatusow. All right, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. Mr. Slatusow, did you know Angus Cameron as a member of the Communist Party ?
Mr. IVIatusow. No, sir.
Mr. Sourwixe. Did you know that on May Y, 1953, Angus Cameron invoked the fifth amendment when asked about his Communist Party membership ?
Mr. IVIatusow. It is very possible. I believe Mr. Cameron
Mr. Sourwine. The question was only did you laiow that.
Mr. IVLiTusow. I don't know the date. I believe Mr. Cameron told me at one time he appeared before Senator Jenner in Boston and invoked the fifth amendment when asked many questions.
Mr. Sourwixe. What did he tell you about why he did that?
Mr. Matusow. He told me he was defending the Constitution of the United States.
Mr. Sourwixe. Did he tell you whether or not he was a Communist ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir. In fact, the exact quote, if you would like to know what he told me, sir, I will tell you exactly in quotes.
Mr. SouRwix^E. How long will it take, Mr. Matusow?
Mr. Matusow. Less than 30 seconds.
Mr. SouRwix'E. Go ahead.
Mr. Matusow. He said he walked in; there was no chair, and he looked at Senator Jenner, and he said, "Senator Jenner, where is my chair," and then as soon as he started off, he said, "Senator Jenner,
59886 — 55— pt. 5 4
470 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COISIJVIUNISM
you might not know the meaning of the first amendment, but I do," and that is what Mr. Cameron related in relation to that testimony, tome.
Mr. SouEWiNE. That is all he said to you about it ?
Mr. Matusow. And that he also invoked the fifth amendment, and in his opinion safeguarded for his own reasons, and I didn't inquire as to what they were.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, you remember considerable testimony that you have given here about what has been referred to as a memo- randum given to you at the same time that you were given a transcript of your testimony in the case of the 13 Communists, the so-called Flynn case ?
Mr. Matusow. Not the so-called, but the Flynn case; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I would like to send you a photostat of a document and ask you if this is the memorandum in question. I believe that since it has been discussed in this hearing it should be in the record.
Mr. Matusow. It is the document in question, sir ; but — let counsel see it — but I think it is incorrectly referred to as a memorandum, and I believe
Mr. SouRwiNE. If it is the document in question, and we put it in the record as such, the question of its designation is immaterial. The record will speak
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. May this be admitted in the record, Mr. Chairman ?
Mr. Chairman. Yes ; it is admitted into the record.
(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 29" and appears below:)
Exhibit No. 29
Testimony of Hakvey Matusow
direct examination, july 22, 1952 (tr. 6565)
Joined C. P., October 1947; remained a member until January 19, 1951 (Tr. 6565).
First contact with FBI
About February 1950 "I voluntarily called the FBI" made an appointment to see an agent, went down to see him "and volunteered to give him any information I had in relation to my activities in the Communist Party" (Tr. 6566).
Reports to FBI
Reported to the FBI "sometimes weekly, sometimes once every two weeks, and sometimes more than once a week (Tr. 6566). Reports were both oral and written (Tr. 6566).
Money received from FBI
Did not receive payments for these reports. Received some money for expense incurred in gathering material for the reports (Tr. 6566). Received such payments for approximately seven months — never more than $70 in any one month (Tr. 6567).
Socialism could not be obtained peacefully. Against all
Institute of Marxist Studies : School set up as a comprehensive study of Marxism-Leninism for member of the C. P. — at the Jefferson School, early fall 1948 (Tr. 6608). At one course taught by Beatrice Siskind on the subject of American Exceptionalism (6609), B. Siskind said:
Tr. 6610 : "* * * that American exceptionalism was a theory started in the 1920's when the Communist Party was under the leadership of Lovestone. She stated that American exceptionalism said that the United States would not suffer economic crises in the event of world economic crises, that we were exempt or
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 471
we just couldn't have one here if labor worked with the bourgeoisie or thie capitalists or the management, as the case may be. She pointed out and said that American exceptionalism was also carried forth under Earl Browder in 1945 and said that was the reason for his expulsion, and that you could not, she said, collaborate with the bourgeoisie or the capitalists, that labor could not. The only way to avoid economic crises is with the establishment of socialism, and she stated that socialism could not be obtained under a peaceful means, it could not be obtained by collaboration, that the capitalists or bourgeoisie would not give up without a struggle, and therefore the working class, under the leadership of the Communist Party, would have to take over by power and overthrow the bourgeoisie."
Henry Winston — sabotaffe in case of war
In December 1948, Matusow attended a meeting of the C. P. in Philadelphia at which Henry Winston, organizational secretary of the C. P. spoke (Tr. 6622- 6624). Matusow returned from Philadelphia together with Winston — on trip back Winston said :
Tr. 662.5-26: "* * * that his article in the fourtheenth convention issue of Political Affairs, which was September of 1948, should be read and studied more fully by the members of the Communist Party. He said that it was important for the young members of the Communist Party in New York, members of the Youth ciubs, to get out of New York and to get out into the Midwest into basic industries, out in Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, Western Pennsylvania, and up-State New York near Buffalo. He said that it was important to go there so that the young Communists could form a nucleus of workers on the side of the Communist Party, to recruit and get young people into the Communist Party, so that in the event of any imperialistic war, as he put it, we could help the side of the Soviet Union, as he stated it, and slow down production, and in some places call strikes, and in general see that the war production, in the event of a war, would not carry forward to its fullest capacity."
Arnold Johnson
In December 1948 witness attended a meeting at the Hank Forbes Auditorium, 0. P. headquarters, 35 E. 12th St., at which Arnold Johnson spoke (Tr. 6626-27). Johnson said :
Tr. 6627 : "He said that it was important for the Communist Youth Movement to build a new Marxist-Leninist Youth Group that would or could leave the white-collar jobs and get out into basic industry in the tradition of the Young Communist League. He said that the New York organization, the Youth Organ- ization of the Communist Party needed building. We had a trained cadre, and we had to train them in New York and get them out into the basic industries so that we could recruit young workers and get them on the side of the Commu- nist Party. We had to get them into the trade unions in the midwest, in basic industries, and we had to recruit in there, and in the event of any war with the Soviet Union we would then have people on our side."
Pettis Perry
In December 1948 Perry spoke in a restaurant on University place (Tr. 6627).
Tr. 6628-29 : "Mr. Perry spoke about the question of building socialism. He said that the building of socialism went hand in hand with the setting up and establishing of a Negro nation in the black belt of the United States, and the freeing of the Negro people and the Negro liberation movement, that the South in the United States — tliere were some States such as IMississippi where the Negro people constituted a majority, and that a Negro nation would have to be set up, would be set up in the black belt. He referred to the book, Marxism and the National Question, and the basic principles for definition of what is a nation, and he stated that the Negro people in the United States constitute a nation, and that this nation could not be set up unless socialism were to come to power in the United States and that the bourgeoisie would not sit back and let it come to power peacefully, and therefore the working class led by the Communist Party would have to forcibly overthrow this bourgeoisie to set up the Negro nation while establishing socialism."
Puerto Rico — Blake, Trachtenberg
In Dec. 1948 at a Xmas Party in the Jefferson School, Trachtenberg intro- duced Matusow to the chairman of tlie Puerto Rican C. P. and said that Matusow led a subscription drive held by the Sunday Worker and would go to Puerto Rico as a guest of Puerto Rican C. P., expenses paid by New York County C. P. (Tr. 6629).
472 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Before he took the trip he had a conversation with Blake — on approximately April 15, 1949, at 35 E. 12 St. (Tr. 6636).
Blake said :
Tr. 6637-38: "* * * that I should familiarize myself with the Party, the Communist Party line on Puerto Rico. He pointed out: Mr. Blake said that the .struggle for the indei>endence of Puerto Rico was tied up directly with the struggle for socialism. He said that Puerto Rico was being used as a military base by the United States, and an independent Puerto Rico would help to destroy those bases and triple the Caribbean defense. He pointed out that the only time Puerto Rico would get its independence was when we had conducted an effective struggle for socialism and had overthrown the bourgeoisie there. He said he had been to Puerto Rico before and that if Puerto Rico were independent the struggle for socialism there would be accomplished a lot easier."
Trachtenherg — Vishinski — Law of Soviet State (G. E. 9J{A)
In the fall of 1949, at the Worker's Book Shop where Matusow was employed (Tr. 6645), Trachtenherg said concerning Vishinski's Law of Soviet State:
Tr. 6646 "* * * the book was selling for $15 and was far beyond the reach of most of the rank and file Party members, and he stated that the book, at a lower price, would be very useful in the Party in that the concepts created here by I\Ir. Vishinski on a new form of socialist law were diametrically opposed to the EnglisJi law, and that the Party should be familiar with this new concept of Socialist law, and that if the book wei'e published at a lower price than $15, it would be very useful in the Party apparatus and educational set-up."
G. E. 94A offered and objection sustained (Tr. 6648-52). Following argu- ment (at pp. 6648-52) in presence of IMatusow. Matusow obligingly supplied the necessary foundation. He testified as follows :
Tr. 6653 : ''Q. Do you recall anything else that Mr. Trachtenherg said about this book. Mr. Matusow?
"A. Mr. Trachtenherg did say that the book contained the first comprehensive report of the Soviet concept of law and the Marxist-Leninist concept of law.
"He went on further to say that in talking about the book, the Law of the Soviet State, that the question of capitalism and socialism here, or the creating of a socialist society and eliminating class antagonisms, how that was to be accom- plished through the establishment of socialism, how the diametrically opposed classes could be eliminated — were found in that book."
(Note that the Court admitted G. E. 94A solely against Trachtenherg as evi- dence of his intent and so instructed the jury (Tr. 6669) . Check if at conclusion of Government's case — court admitted it as against all.)
MATUSOW CROSS-EXAMINATION
Reports to FBI
Matusow was told to include in his reports to the FBI "what Communist Party meetings I attended, who was in attendance, and what they said (Tr. 6920) . His instructions were to report "everything that I remembered I saw and heard" (Tr. 6921).
As to C. P. activities prior to Feb. 1950 (date he contacted FBI) he spent a year after his contact writing out a repox-t concerning these activities (Tr. 6921). He used notes, including notes taken in course taught by B. Siskind (Tr. 6922) in preparing report. Doesn't recall if he reported on Bea Siskind's teaching (Tr. 6922-23). His best recollection is that the "substance matter of the class is not in that report (Tr. 6923).
Believes he reported to the FBI concerning the Winston incident in the com- plete report submitted after contact with FBI (Tr. 6939).
Motion made for production of reports concerning the two incidents (Tr. 6939) granted by the Court after its inspection of the report (Tr. 6960). The Court stated the following as his reason for granting motion :
Tr. 6960: "With respect to the matter that we had up at the close of the session last night, I have been supplied by the Government with the rep<n-t made by the witness in question, and I have read it and compared it with the testi- mony, and have come to the conclusion that the accounts of the two incidents with respect to which the defense wished to use it is sufficiently at variance with the testimony so that the defense should be permitted to examine those parts of the report."
The report mentions the Bea Siskind class but does not discuss content of teaching (Tr. 6993).
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 473
Concernins: the Winston incident the report states the following:
Tr. 7007-08 (Exhilnt read to jury) : "In December 1949 the worker started its sub drive. I had not .liiven much thoimht to it, and at the end of three weeks I found myself in the lead, O.") subs. Everybody in the Youth movement was happy about it for it had lieen a lonji' time since the Youth walked away with the prize. I didn't know it when the drive started, but there was a trip to Puerto Rico in store for the winner. It was on a Sunday in December. A county-wide press party was held at the Hank Forbes Auditorium for all Party members who sold tive or more, r.en Semonofsky, county press director, headed the nieetin.tr. He introduuced me to Connie Bart of I'hiladeliihia, and at her su.cges- tion Ben and I acTeed to s?o to Philadelphia the following Tuesday night. Henry AVinston was the main speaker at that meeting. Others who I knew at the meeting" — and the balance of it is illegible.
Then it picks up again in legible type "main body of the Philadelphia Party was there, but never liaving been active in IMiiladelphia I didn't know them. At the meeting Winston discussed the need for more Party people to leave their white collar jobs in the East, for the Party to get off its intellectual horse and go out into the basic industry as was done in the thirties during the organization of the CIO. This had been the line of the Party since the '48 Convention. The fruits of this line are sliown in the formation of the National Negro Labor Coun- cil, October 27, 1951, in Cincinnati, Ohio. We left Philadelphia at about 12.00 p. m., Winston. Semonofsky and myself. The discussion on the train dealt with the Party's role in the Progressive Party and a continuation of the subject of Winston's talk in Philadelphia."
(Note the date in the report is 1949 and in testimony it is 1948 — but witness testified that there was only one sucli occasion and the 48 date was correct (Tr. 7006).)
Motion for production of report re Johnson incident (Tr. 7013).
Motion for production of report re Perry speech and Puerto Rican incident (Tr. 7020).
Court granted the motion stating following:
Tr. 7073 : "They were, first, as to Arnold Johnson's speech as told on page 6627 of the record. I found that referred to in the FBI record at pages 63 and 64, and I find it to be in the same class with the Siskind testimony, and I think that on that account, the defendants should be permitted to examine that and use it if they wish.
"The second was a speech by Pettis Perry referred to at page 6628 and I found nothing in the statement with respect to that.
"The third is with respect to the instructions prior to the trip to Puerto Rico on pages 6636, 6637 and 6638, and there I found references on page 54, 55 and 59."
Contents of Report re Johnson Incident :
Tr. 7088-89 : The entire section of the report reads as follows : "The first talk of a Labor Youth League was during the Wallace campaign. It was decided at the Communist Party National Convention that a new Marxist-Leninist Youth Group should be formed. The Party was waiting for the election to end, and tJien start the ball rolling. The Friday night before Christmas a county leader- .ship meeting was held at the Hank Forbes Auditorium. Speakers at the meeting were Arnold Johnson, Lou Diskin and Ernie Parent. We were setting up the foundation for a LYL, by setting up Party Youth Sections. There were about 150 Party youth present. Johnson spoke of the need to go out into the indus- trial centers of the country and get a hold on basic industry. Diskin spoke of the need of a Marxist-Leninist Youth Group, and how since the end of the YCL the Party was in need of a fighting youth organization.
"The meeting also took up the worker sub drive and how we could reach more youth with the paper as part of our organizing drive."
The Report concerning the Puerto Rican incident reads as follows :
Tr. 7112 : "In preparation for my trip to Puerto Rico I was told to read up on the subject, and as far as the Party was concerned the place to go was the Frederick Vanderbilt Field Library on West 20th Street. The Party was right.
"They had a student strike in Puerto Rico shortly before my visit there. And it was decided that greetings should be taken from the leaders of the C. C. N. Y. strike.
"I went to Ted Bassett who at the time was New York County Educational Director, and a member of the State Puerto Rican Commission. Ben Davis was supposed to go on the trip, but due to the trial he didn't. Before we left
474 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
George Blake, New York County Chairman, briefed us on what to expect and who to see. I also went with Juan Emannuallie, who told us something about the history of the Party, and what the present line was.
"Before leaving New York I was told to contact the Party Youth leader (Eugene Cubues) as well as the Party leaders (Santo and Andreu) to make arrangements for the sending of a delegate to the World Youth Festival in Budapest, Hungary. The New York Party was prepared to pay for the trip and handle all details about getting the visa as well as all other paper work. (American Youth for a Free World did the work.) After a meeting with Andreu it was decided that Cubues would go."
On redirect witness testified that he was told to omit conversations in the report concerning his activities prior to the time he began working with FBI (Tr. 7161, 7163).
New Mexico article
Matusow helped prepare an article which was published under the name of Harvey Matt in New Mexico in 1950 — Matusow did not submit it but helped prepare it (Tr. 7119). (DE 4xP for id, Nov. 30, 1950 issue of Santa Fe New Mexican page 4, section B (Tr. 7123) ).
On redirect he testified that he did not get any money for the work he did on the article (tr. 71.52).
ON BECKOSS
Matusow does not recall having any discussion or negotiation with a man named Will Harrison, the managing editor of the Santa Fe of New Mexico, or with the managing editor of the paper concerning the appearance of the article in the newspaper (Tr. 7170). His recollection is a little foggy (Tr. 7171). He recalls having a discussion concerning article with the Taos correspondent (Tr. 7170).
Denies receiving a check for $12 from the Santa Fe New Mexican as compensa- tion for article (Tr. 7172). Denies endorsing such a check (Tr. 7172). Denies cashing check (Tr. 7172).
Believes he met Will Harrison on one or more occasions (Tr. 7172).
Mr. Matusow. This is, by the way, a true copy of the copy I re- ceived, a photostat of that time copy, but not a photostat of the actual copy I received.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, your book says :
El Paso was very profitable for me. I was paid $9 a day normal witness per diem, plus $25 a day expert witness fee, plus my income as a comic in Juarez.
Do you remember that?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. For how many days were you paid that $25 a day expert witness fee ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I don't know; I thinl? 7 days, maybe 8.
Mr. SouRwiNE. And for how many days were you in El Paso?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall now. It was about 10 days, I think.
Mr. SouRwiNE. And you got $9 a day for all of that time, on top of the $25 ?
Mr. IVIatusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. "VVliat was your income as a comic in Juarez ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I don't recall offhand now, maybe a couple of hundred dollars, m.aybe a little less.
Mr. SouRwiNE. For the whole 10 days?
Mr. Matusow. I didn't work every night.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes, but over the whole 10 days it was a couple of hundred dollars?
Mr. ]\L\Tusow. I would have to figure it out, check it.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That would be an average of $20 a day ?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 475
Mr. Matusow. Yes. For the 10 days I was there I might have made four or five hundred dollars.
Mr. Sot-RWixE. Was it closer to $200 or $500?
Mr. jNIatlsow. I would have to check it, sir. We will say $450 for argument's sake ; it will be close enough.
Mr. SouKwiNE. I would be willing to take $500. Would you say it was over $500 ?
Mr. Matc'sow. It was not over $500.
Mr. SouRWixE. Was that your total income or total income
Mr. Matusow. That was nightclub income, witness fee, $30 a day, plus about $20 a day.
Mr, SouRwixE. The whole thing for 10 days or 2 weeks was not over $500 ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't think it was over $500.
Mr. SouRwixE. Haven't you said in your book that your hotel bill was over $200 ?
Mr. Matusow. Quite possible.
Mr. SouRWiXE. Did you make much profit out of that trip ?
Mr. Matusow. I was living high off the hog again ; I considered that profit.
Mr. SouRWixE. Well, you were living high off the hog now, not on what you made on that trip but on your own money, were you not?
Mr. I^Iatusow. Well, look, sir, if I make $400 or $500 or $350 in 10 days I consider that a pretty good wage. How much I spend is another story, but what was my income.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, did you ever steal any money?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, here we go again ; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. From whom did you steal it ?
Mr. Matusow. AVell, "stole" from my ex-wife. Let that be in quotes.
Mr. SouRwix'E. At a time when she was your ex- wife?
Mr. Matusow. No ; at the time she was my wife.
Mr. SouRwixE. "Wliose quotes are you putting around the word "steal"?
Mr. Matusow. I am putting my quotes around them as they were intended in a letter which I presume you are going to put in evidence.
Mr. SouRwixE. You did write a letter about it ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. To whom did you write the letter ?
Mr. Matusow. An attorney here in Washington, Joseph A. Rafferty .
Mr. SouRwixE. AVhat was the amount involved ?
Mr. Matusow. Seventeen hundred and sixty dollars, I think ; maybe I am off by $10.
Mr. SouRwix'E. Wliat was your financial condition when you began to negotiate with Cameron and Kahn concerning your book?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I don't know now; it was about even.
Mr. SouRWixE. You were about flat broke, weren't you?
Mr. Matusow. Close to it.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You owed considerable money, did you not?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. At the end of 1953 you owed money to the Esse Corp., did you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Right, sir.
476 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. SouRWiNE. How much ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, about $250. $300,
Mr. SouKwiNE. Have you paid it yet ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr, SouRWiNE. At the end of 1953 you owed money to the Tidewater Oil Co.
JNIr. Matusow. Forty-five doHars ; I haven't paid that either.
Mr. SouRWiNE. At the end of 1953 did you owe money to any restaurants ?
Mr. Matusow Well, that is a running bill ; yes, I did,
Mr, SouRwiNE, Wliat is a running bill ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I think a restaurant
The Chairman. Proceed, sir.
Mr, Matusow, I think the record ought to be straight on one thing here; that at the end of 1953, and from the time starting in 1953, until the time I met with Cameron and Kahn, my debts were de- creased by better than 50 percent, and that most of the money I earned in 1953 went into paying off my debts, and I didn't contact Cameron and Kahn in relation to making money, which was the inference, I be- lieve, counsel was trying to draw from this, and that certain debts I have now in relation to the ones counsel has mentioned, are debts which are a matter of question whether my ex-wife was responsible for cer- tain debts, or whether I was, and whether or not those debts are going to be paid is going to be decided later in the courts, and I don't think it is fair to assume or to leave the impression that those debts were debts which I just ran up irresponsibly and didn't pay because I didn't have any conscience about paying.
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, may I refresh the witness' memory with respect to the full and general release that he executed in the State of New Mexico, wherein for the consideration of $10 all of his claims, even including the claim of $20,000 that he had against his ex-wife, his then present wife, for alimony and all other claims of every kind and nature
Mr. Matusow. I am familiar with that.
Senator Welker. (continuing). Were settled.
INIr. INIatusow. I am very familiar with it.
Senator Welker. And now you do not think for a moment that that release was fraudulent in any way ?
Mr. Matusow. Look, sir
Senator Welker. And vou are hiding behind the fact-
Mr. Matusow. I presume you are an excellent divorce attorney and you have probably got many peo|)le, men and women, into a position similar to me, and that is how [ got into mine because a shrewd attorney which T was not responsible for, and I didn't intend to take responsibility for but that is between me and the Esso and Tide- water Corp., and if I have to pay them I will pay them, but I don't think the committee is leaving tlie impression, I mean, look, I am leaving my own impression; I don't admit I am an honorable man, I have been — well, I am not going to use the term — but for a good part of my life, and I know it. and I am trying to correct it, sir.
Senator Welker, So that you are
Mr. Matusow, To leave a wrong impression.
Senator Welker, To get them paid
The Chairman. Just a minute, please.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 477
Senator AVelker. I am tlirou<ih Avitli the speech business, and I do not want to leave the inij)ression that I think yon are an honorable man either, but I am merely asking you this question : In view of the general release that was introduced in evidence yesterday, and you admitted it, noAv in answer to counsel's question, you stated there was a question as to whether or not your wife owed the obligation or you did.
Mr. Matltsow. This was a question in my mind and, look, I am going to take care of my obligations when and if I am forced to or when and if my conscience says 1 am going to in relation to certain things. I am not going to go into all of them, sir.
Senator Welker. Well, your conscience — remember the interro- gation I gave you yesterdav about your Biblical quotations, and so forth?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir ; there are many.
Senator Welker. I am quite sure you will do exactly as you quoted in your book.
Mr. Matusow\ I am familiar with it.
Mr. SouRwaxE. Mr. jNIatusow, what debts did you pay off during 1953 and 1954?
Mr. Matusow. I will have to check into that, but I paid off a number of them. I paid off the debt on a car that I had.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You have stated here
Mr. jMatusow. Well. I paid off a debt on a car; that was one particular.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You have stated here that you paid off at least half of your total indebtedness. Now, that was as of what time? Did you, during 1954, pav off half of your total indebtedness at the end of 1953 ?
Mr. Matusow. No; by the month of September 1954 that money had been paid.
Mr. SouRW^NE. You mean that by the end of September 1954, you had paid off half of your total indebtedness as of the time of Januarxi 1,1954?
Mr. JVL4TUS0W. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Will you give this committee a complete list of the debts that you paid off during that 9-month period?
Mr. Matusoav. I will endeavor to furnish that to the committee after I have taken care of my own income tax and finished using the material needed for tax purposes ; I will send it to the committee.
Mr. SouRwiXE. Mr. Matusow, you are being a little flippant.
Mr. Matusow. No, I don't think I am, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I ask the Chair to direct that that information be furnished without regard to any other obligations that Mr. Matusow may have. You are perfectly able to copy the information.
Mr. Matusow^ Oh, you want a copy of it, pardon me; O.K., that is a different story, sir. Let's be specific.
The Chairman. Proceed.
:Mr. SouRwiNE. Will the Chair order the information to be fur- nished ?
The Cilvirman. He said he would furnish it.
Mr. SouRwaxE. Did you leave Dayton, Ohio, in May of 1952, owing any money ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe — I believe I did.
59886 — 55— pt. 5 5
478 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you owe any money to a Mr. Edmiston?
Mr. Matusow. That was a matter of dispute. I believe I did, and I believe it was paid within 30 days.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you owe any back rent to your landlady when you left Dayton ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. To return to the matter of this restaurant, what was the restaurant to which you owed money ?
Mr. Matusow. Still do, I guess ; Toots Shor's.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Wliat was the restaurant?
Mr. Matusow. Toots Shor; go in there a lot, pay a lot of bills there, too.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was that for checks you had signed ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I still do sign my tabs there when I go in there.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you have a friend named Irv, nicknamed Irv, I-r-v?
Mr. Matusow. Maybe 10 or 15 people named that.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You have 10 or 15 fi-iends whose nickname is Irv?
Mr. Matusow. Might have a hundred ; that is a very common name in New York.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you have a friend named Irv to whom you owe any money ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Do you have a friend named Irv to whom you owed money in January of 1952 ?
Mr. Matusow. That question came up in court last week and I don't recall who that was, but I seem to recall I don't owe that money to anybody now ; I don't have a record of it.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You testified that you owed him $320.
Mr. Matusow. I believe it was in a diary notation of mine, sir, so it must have been true.
Mr. SouRwiNE. And you don't remember who it was ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; the slightest idea.
Mr. SouRwiNE. But you are testifying that you paid him?
Mr. Matusow. I testified that I have no record of owing him, owing anybody by that name now, any money, so therefore, I must have paid it or I would have a record of it.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Were you, Mr. Matusow, paid for your activity, for your campaign activity, in the State of Washington ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Wlio paid you ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall the gentleman's name.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Wiere were you when you were paid ?
Mr. Matusow. In the office of the campaign headquarters of Senator Harry Cain.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was it someone connected with that campaign head- quarters who paid you?
Mr. Matusow. To my knowledge he was connected with it ; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was it Mr. Fred Plansen?
Mr. Matusoav. I don't remember his name. He lived in Tacoma, practiced law there.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you know Mr. Fred Hansen ?
Mr. Matusow. I seem to recall having: met the man.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 479
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did h^ live in Tacoma ?
Mr. jVLvtusow. 1 don't know.
Mr. SouinviNE. Will you state that yon were paid by a member of Senator Cain's office staif who lived in Tacoma and practiced law there '.
Mr. MatL'Sow. I didn't say he was a member of his office staff, but somebody connected with the campaig-n, which is different.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Will you state that you were paid by a person who was connected with Senator Cain's campaign and that you were paid at his campaign headquarters, and that the person who paid you lived in Tacoma and practiced law there ?
Mr. Mattjsow. To my knowledge, yes, sir; it might have been a real-estate office though, or law and real estate.
Mr. SouRwixE. How much were you paid then and there?
Mr. Matusow. I believe it was $600 or thereabouts, close on to it, maybe $700.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You have stated in your book False Witness^
The Chairman. Wait a minute. I want to understand. You say that you were paid, you think, $600 %
Mr. jSIatusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Wait just a minute now — by a man connected with Senator Harry Cain's campaign headquarters who practiced law in Tacoma ?
Mr. Matt'sow. Or had a real estate office there.
Tlie Chairjnian. Or had a real-estate office in Tacoma ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right.
The payment was made, as you allege, in Senator Cain's campaign headquarters?
]\Ir. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. All right. Proceed.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was it cash or check ?
Mr. Matusow. Cash. I signed a receipt for it, though.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did that receipt show the amount?
Mr. Matusow^ I believe it did, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, you stated in your book that you were paid $500 on that occasion ; did you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir. I wanted to be conservative in my estimate because I couldn't find the exact figure. I believed it was 6 or 7. I know I stated 5, so as to not go overboard and make it look worse if I found out it was 5.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, you have testified or you had told Mr. Kahn during your tape-recorded conversation with him that the amount involved was $600; had you not?
Mr. Matusoav. I don't know what I said in the tape-recorded con- versation. It was just conversation. I wasn't checking my files to be accurate at that time.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Well, did you subsequently check your files to be accurate ?
Mr. Matusow. I checked and couldn't find the exact amount, sir, so that is why I put down $500 in the book ; I knew it must have been a few hundred dollars more, but I wanted to play it safe.
Mr. SouEwiNE. And yet you testified here that everything in the book was the truth ?
480 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. To the best of my knowledge ; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiXE. Are you testifying now that you are affirming that you were paid at least $500 on that occasion at Senator Cain's head- quarters ?
Mr. Matusow. My recollection is at least $500.
The Chairman. 1 ask, was it $500 or $600 ?
Mr. Matusow. I said my recollection is it was at least $500, sir.
The Chairman. At least $500 ?
Mr. Matusow. That is my recollection.
The Chairman. You said a minute ago that your recollection was at least $600. Now, which is true?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir. The question that counsel asked me was, "Will you testify that it was at least $500 ?" Maybe I didn't hear the question right.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Could it have been as little as $400 ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; not to my recollection.
Mr. SouEWiNE. Will you te^stify positively that it was $400 or more?
Mr. Matusow. I am not going to make a positive statement about a recollection which is not too coherent at this time.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You will not testify positively that it was more than $300, will you?
Mr. Matusow. I won't testify anything, to anything positively about it, because I have no definite piece of pa])er in my hand say- ing this is it.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Tlien why did you put that in your book and why have you sworn here that what was in your book was true?
Mr. Matusow. As I told you, I recall it was over $500. You want a definite yes or no answer; I am not going to give you one, sir, and you know why.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You have already sworn, Mr. Matusow, that the statements in your book are true, and your book contains the state- ment that it was $500.
Mr. Matusow. Tlien why are you bringing it i\p now? If you have got a case against me, bring it; don't start rubbing salt in the wound, if you think you have a wound to rub salt into.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, I am not rubbing salt in your wound.
Mr. Matusow. I don't have any wound; you might think you are doing so.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I am still trying earnestly
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the witness be admonished that he is on the witness stand under oath, and he should conduct himself as a witness and not be argumentative with counsel.
The Chairman. Well, I think he had a right to argue.
Proceed.
Mr. Matusow'. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Sourwine. I am only attempting, Mr. Matusow, to carry out the duty I am charged with here to try to make a record of what you now say is the truth.
Mr. Matusow. I appreciate that, sir, and I appreciate that I have a duty to tell the truth here to this committee and to the American people.
Mr. Sourwine. Since you have on many prior occasions changed testimony previously given, I am asking j'ou now whether it is now
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 481
your testimony that wliat yon said in the book about receiving $500 in Senator Cain's cani])aign headquarters was true.
Mr. Matusow. My recollection today is that is was more than $500.
Mr. SouRwixE. As a matter of fact, don't you know that it was only $150?
Mr. Matusow, I know it was more than $150,
Mr. SouRwiNE. Don't you know that the receipt you signed shows it was only $150?"
Mr. ]\lATt^sow, If that is the case it is a fraudiilent receipt.
Mr. SouRwiXE. We now have the record clear on one point. You are Avilling to swear it was more than $150; is that correct?
Mr. Matusow. ^'es, sir; you do have the record clear on that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. But j'ou are not willing to swear it was $500, as you said in your book; is that right?
Mr. Matusow. My plane fare from Salt Lake City to Seattle and back was more than $150, and that was taken care of, plus expense money.
]Mr. SouRwiNE. "\^'liat does that have to do with the amount of money you were ]:)aid in Senator Cain's campaign office?
Mr. Matusow. That was part of the money I was paid, sir.
Mr, SouRwiNE, Well, then, we are back again
Mr. ]Matusow. Therefore, we established it is more than $150, and therefore, my recollection is that it was more than $500, If you have the receipt, sir, produce it, and we can see who is right.
Mr. SouRAVixE. "Wliat amount, Mr. Matusow, did you report on your income tax as having received on that occasion ?
Mr. Matusow. I recorded and reported the correct amount of money I earned in the year 1952. I don't recall now if I broke it down as to how I received every dollar, that is, because as an independent con- tractor, I believe my accountant advised me at the time, that I did not have to break down every dollar I earned as to where I earned it, but just the total amount, and that might be how I filed it. But I think maybe I have a record the other way, filing it as to how much I re- ceived from Senator Cain's office, and also my expense money was not — airline ticket money — I don't believe was reported.
Mr. SouRwiN^E. That is another one of those answers that confuses the record but I don't think it is important enough to go further.
Mr. Matusow. Thank you.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Have you testified, Mr. Matusow, that you called and apologized to the following persons for wrongful attacks you had made upon them
]Mr. Matusow. Called or verbally apologized to, was my answer in the court.
Mr. SouRwaxE. I beg your pardon ? "Wliat did j^ou say ?
The Chairman. Repeat that, please.
Mr. ]VL\Tusow. I believe that when I referred to apologies I had made to certain people I referred to also either called or personallj'^ saw.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Very well.
Have you testified you called upon or called on the telephone and apologized to the following persons for wrongful attacks you had made upon them : Drew Pearson, Marquis Childs, Elmer Davis, James
482 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Weclisler, Senator Jackson, Senator Mansfield, Senator ISlurray, Sena- tor Humphrey, and Senator Lehman ?
Mr. Matusow. Senator Lehman's administrative assistant, I believe, not Senator Lehman himself.
Mr. SouRWiNE. And the other names are correct ?
Mr. Matusow. I spoke to Senator Murray; Senator Mansfield's administrative assistant, not Senator Mansfield. I spoke to Senator Jackson, Senator Humphrey, Drew Peai-son, Marquis Childs, James Wechsler, they are accurate, either on the phone or being
Mr. SouRwiNE.. "WHiy did you pick those nine persons to apologize to ?
Mr. ISIatusow. Those are the only ones I could recall apologizing to ; the list is much longer.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You mean you did apologize to others ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir ; but those are all I can recall.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Have you attempted to apologize to everyone con- cerning whom you have lied ?
Mr. Matusow. Anybody whom I liave able to locate : yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Well, you have about 240 more people now that you can apologize to.
Mr. Matusow. You have got 240 on that list? Thank you, sir; I didn't know there were that many. The press has reported 180 up to now.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Have you testified that you had falsely identified these nine persons as Communists or pro-Communists ?
Mr. Matusow. Communists, pro-Communists, or serving the Com- munist causes; I might have called them innocent dupes, something like that.
Mr. SouRWiNE. TVHien you contacted these nine persons to apologize to them, did you contact them solely for that purpose ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe when 1 contacted Senator Jackson it was by telephone, and I said, "I am sorry, I apologize; what more can I do at this time," or something like that.
Mr. SouRwixE. That does not answer the question.
Mr. Matusow. Well, in some cases the apology was there solely for the case of apology. There might have been other aspects to the conversation, but it nevertheless was an apology, and it would have been regardless of the other part of the conversation.
Mr. SouRWTNE. Didn't you ask every one of those people for money ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. T\niich ones didn't you ask for money ?
Mr. Matusow. I will go through the list again and I will give it to you.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ask Elmer Davis for money ?
Mr. Matusow. I didn't ask him for money ; I asked him if he knew of a publisher I might see.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you ask Drew Pearson for money ?
Mr. Matusow. No; I asked him to send some money back or as a loan.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Didn't you ask him for money ?
Mr. Matusow. I asked him also if he knew of a publisher, but I didn't ask him for money.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ask Marquis Childs for money ?
Mr. Matusow. Again I asked him if he knew of a publisher.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 483
The Cel^irman. Answer the question. The question was did you ask him for money. What is j^our answer ? . .
Mr. jMa'itjsow. Well, I am trying to let counsel know when I wanted somebody to help me find a publisher I would consider that asking for money.
Mr. SouRwiNE, So would I.
Mr. jNIatusow. And that is why I am stating it ; I think it should be clarihed, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ask James Wechsler for money ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes ; I offered to sell him the story.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ask Senator Jackson for money ?
Mr. i\L\Tusow. Xo, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. His administrative assistant?
Mr. ]S'L\TTJS0w. I didn't speak to his administrative assistant.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Anyone in his office ?
jVIi'. ISIatusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ask Senator Mansfield for money?
Mr. Matusow. Never talked to Senator Mansfield.
Mr. SouRwiNE. His administrative assistant?
Mr. ]\L\TUSow. I didn't ask him for money ; I think I asked him if he knew a publisher or in that sense
Mr. SouR\vixE. Well, you said you consider that asking for-
]Mr. M4TUS0W. Well, in tliat sense I think it should be clarified as to what the purpose of the request was.
Mr. SouRwixE. You were trying to get money?
Mr. Matusow. I was trying to get a subsidy to write a book.
Mr. Sour WINE. Did you ask Senator Murray for money ?
Mr. ]Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiXE. Anyone in his office ?
Mr. Ma.tusow. I don't believe I asked anyone in his office for money. I believe I talked to somebody in his office on one occasion about try- ing to get a publisher, but I didn't think anything would happen tlirough his office.
Mr. SouRw^xE. Did you ask Senator Humphrey for money ?
JMr. MvTusow. I talked about a publisher again.
Mr. SouRwiXE. Did you ask Senator Lehman or anyone in his office for money?
Mr. Matusow. I believe I talked about a publisher.
( Senator Jenner left the hearing room. )
Mr. SouRwixE. You have testified that you sought secret loans of $1,500 from a number of persons?
Mr. ]\Iatusow. That isn't my language.
Mr. SouRwixE. Is that substantially correct?
Mr. ISIatusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiXE. Well, put it in your language, then.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir. I spoke to a number of people about trying to get a subsidy to write this book.
Mr. SouR'vvixE. Oh, no
Mr. Matusow. Let me finish the answer. I sound familiar — I will sound like a Senator here when we finish — I am sorry.
Senator Welker. What was that ?
The Chairmax. Come on, now. Let us not have anything theatri- cal about it.
Mr. Matusow. I can't help it, sir; I try to
484 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
The Chairman, Make your answer responsive to the question.
Mr. Matusow. I contacted a number of people about trying to get subsistence to write this book, and in the process of doing so I felt that maybe whoever did help me, if somebody did, would be intimi- dated by the press or by certain pressures because of the nature of my book; and, therefore, suggested to these people that I would not — I have told — I said I have told a number of people that I would like to receive this money anonymously so that I don't know specifically who it was and can never testify to that if I am called before a committee.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Now, Mr. Matusow, with regard to Bishop Oxnam, you testified that you did suggest the possibility that someone would lend you $1,500 and would do it anonymously, so that you would not know who it was, didn't you ?
Mr. Matusow. Right.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That would have been a secret, then, would it not?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. It would have been a secret loan, then, would it not ?
Mr. Matusow. Well
Mr. SouRwiNE. Wouldn't it?
Mr. Matusow. In your terminology, in my substance, yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes, sir.
Now, you testified that you made similar propositions to others, did you not?
Mr. Matusow. I did, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, I want to knoAv from w^hat others did you seek secret loans.
Mr. Matusow, I have no recollection of who they are, sir,
Mr. SouRwiNE, Did you get any money from anyone under that kind of a proposition?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you get any money from an anonymous donor or lender?
Mr. Matusow. Not that I recall, sir. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE, Did you get any money from Alfred Kohlberg ?
Mr, Matusow, Oh, he once offered me some money to sue the Alsop brothers, but I never received it ; I never asked for it,
Mr, SouRwiNE, We will come to that in a moment.
Did you ask Mr, Kohlberg for $1,500 or ask him to help you ar- range a secret loan of $1,500 ?
Mr, Matusow. I have heard tell that he has told that story around but it is not true.
The Chairman, Answer the question.
Mr, Matusow. No, sir ; I didn't ask Mr. Kohlberg for that money.
The Chairman, All right,
Mr, SouRwiNE. Did you make to INIr. Kohlberg substantially the same proposition that you made to Bishop Oxnam about an anony- mous phone call with regard to a lender of $1,500?
Mr. Matusow. Grod, no ; I didn't do any such thing. Mr. Kohlberg wouldn't have — sorry.
Mr. SouRwiNE, Do you know Louis Waldman ?
Mr, Matusow, Yes, I do,
Mr. SouRwiNE, Did you talk to him about a loan or gift of $1,500?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 485
Mr. Matusow. I think I might liave talked to him about a loan; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Well, did you ?
Mr. Matttsoav. I might have; I don't recall so, but it is ix)ssible.
Mr. SouRAviNE. Was that in the connotation of the secret loan such as you have discussed ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall if it was.
Mr. SouRwixE. Did you tell Louis Waldman that if he or someone else would give you $1,500 you Avould not write your book?
]\Ir. Matusow. No, I did not.
Mr. SouRwixE. Is that a categorical answer ?
Mr. Matusow. I did not state that to Mr. Waldman.
Mr. SouRwusTE. Are you answering with regard to the substance or the exact words of my question ^
Mr. Matisow. I did not state to ]\Ir. Waldman that if I received any monej" I would not write my book.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you, in substance, state that to him?
Mr. Matusow. In substance or any other way I did not state that • to him.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you solicit funds from anyone in connection with the preparation of your book; I mean directly solicit funds?
Mr. Matusoav. Yes ; I believe I borrowed a few dollars at one time from a friend.
Mr. SouRwiNE. From whom did you directly solicit funds in con- nection with the preparation of your book ?
Mr. Matusow^ My publishers.
Mr. SouRAViNE. From anyone else?
Mr. !Matu80av. Not that I recall.
Mr. Sour WINE. Did you solicit $500 from Jimmy Sullivan in Sen- ator Mansfield's office?
Mr. Matusoav. Gosh, no; as I said, I was looking for an advance.
The Chairman. Wait a minute.
Mr. Matusoav. I don't— I didn't solicit $500 from Mr. Sullivan. Mr. Sullivan told me that the Fnrmers Union was interested in pur- chasing an article I had to write or the chapter of my book dealing with the ]Montana campaign, and he felt that the Farmers Union would purchase that, and that in itself would help subsidize me, in the writing of my book. In that sense I solicited the money from him.
Mr. SouRWiNE. How had the subject come up ?
Mr. Matusoav. In the process of my talking to Mr. Sullivan about the apologA' I was going to make or did make.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Didn't you talk to Mr. Sullivan about the fact that you needed money for this book ?
Mr. Maittsow. I talked to a lot of people, Mr. Sullivan included; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Then you did solicit funds from Mr. Sullivan, didn't you ?
Mr. Matusoav. I did not solicit from him. I believe I talked to Mr. Sullivan about him being an intermediary with the Farmers Union. Get the facts straight.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Who brought up first the subject of the Farmers Union in your conversation with Mr. SulliA^an ?
Mr. Matusoav. I don't recall.
486 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD CORIMUNISM
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever have a telephone conversation with Marquis Childs '.
Mr. Matusow. Might have ; I believe so.
Mr. SouRwiNE. When?
Mr. Matusow. Spring of 1954.
Mr. SouRwiNE. l^Tiere were you ?
Mr. Matusow. Washington.
Mr. SouRwiNE. A^liere was he ?
Mr. Matusow. Washington.
Mr. SouRWixE. What did you telephone him about?
Mr. Matusow. Told him I would like to meet him and apologize to him for having called him a couple of names.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Where were you in Washington ?
Mr. Matusow. I was, I believe, in this office building.
Mr. SouRw^i^TE. Wliere was Mr. Childs when you reached liim by telephone ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe he was at home.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ask him to come to the Senat« Office Building to meet you?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Where did you ask him to come?
Mr. Matusow. He asked me to come and meet him.
Mr. SouRw^NE. Did you meet him at his office ?
Mr. Matusow. I met him in the lobby at his office across the street from the Mayflower Hotel.
Mr, SouRWiNE. Did you telephone to him and ask him to come out and meet you in a hotel room ?
Mr. Matusow. Not that I recall ; it might have been possible, you know, when I called him, and we made an appointment, we did get together, you know. I might have said, "Well, can you come up here," and he may have said, "No," and I said, "O. K., then I will come down here"; right simple.
Mr. SouR\\n[NE. Up here, would you have been in a hotel room ? You weren't at a hotel room at the time.
Mr. Matusow. I might have been staying at a hotel here.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you remember where you were staying ?
Mr. JSIatusow. Not offhand.
Mr. SouRAVixE. Did vou on that occasion meet with Mr. Marquis Childs?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. As a result of your telephone appointment?
Mr. ilATUsow. Yes, sir; we did.
Mr. SouRWixE. Where did you meet with him ?
Mr. ]VL\TUS0M\ I believe it was a People's Drug Store down on 17th Street.
Mr. SouRwixE. AVasn't that after you had asked him to meet you in a hotel room and he had declined to do so ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe, sir, it is very possible that T said, "Can you meet me at my hotel room,'* and he said, "No; I am busy. Will you meet me at my office?" It is possible : I don't say it didn't happen.
Mr. SouRwixE. When you met him at the People's Drug Store on that occasion did you then and there ask him for money?
Mr. Matusow. In the sense of helping me locate a publisher for my book ; yes.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 487
Mr. SouKwiNE. Did he say he would ?
Mr. Matusow. He didn't commit himself one way or another.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did he <rive you any money ?
Mr. Matxtsow. No, sir ; bought me a coke.
Mr. SouRwiNE. He bought you a coke ?
Mr. Maitjsow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. Now, you have testified you had coffee with Mr. Elmer Davis at the AVillaVd Hotel : have you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr, SouRwixE. "When was that ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I think it was October 1953.
Mr. SouRwixE. By appointment?
Mr. Matusoav. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWixE. Did you then and there ask him for money?
Mr. ]NL\Tusow. Xo, sir: I wouldn't say I asked him for money. I asked him to suggest a publisher I might see.
Mr. SouRwixE^ Haven't you said you considered that as asking for money ?
Mr. Matusow. This was — well, yes, sir; we will go back — ^you are correct ; I am wrong.
Mr. Soi-RwixE. You had coffee with Elmer Davis, but you had chocolate malt with Marcjuis Childs. and did you pay for the drinks on either occasion ?
Mr. MATUsow^ I don't think I did.
Mr. SouRAViNE. Did you ever try to borrow money from a man named Hayes from the Hayes Registi-y, 145 West 56th Street, New York?
Mr. Matusow. No ; Mr. Hayes claims so, but he is wrong.
Mr. SouRWiNE. That is your positive testimony ?
Mr. Matusow. That is my positive testimony.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You never tried to borrow money from him.
Did you ever try to get money from him or solicit money from him or try to get him to get you a publisher ?
j\Ir. Matusow. I don't recall an}' conversations I had with Mr. Hayes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. If you do not recall what conversation you had wilh Mr. Hayes
Mr. Matusow. I know I didn't ask him to lend me money ; that much I know. I am an actor and registered with his registry, and was up there every day talking to him about something.
Mr. SouRWixE. Did you ever try to borrow money from a man named Morton Pooner from the Prager Publishing Co. ?
Mr. Matusow. I tried to get an advance on publishing a book; I wouldn't say borrowing money from him.
Mr. SouRwixE. Did you ever try to borrow money from him ?
Mr. Matusow. NOj sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. Did you ever try to borrow money from Eichard A. Brown of the Committee for an Effective Congress?
Mr. Matusow. Tried to get an advance for a book in that sense; yes, sir.
Mr. SouR-vviNE. Well, now, Mr. Matusow, Richard A. Brown of the Committee for an Effective Congress is not a publisher, is he ?
Mr. ISIatusow. Well, he had contacts with some publishers, and I know I knew it then.
488 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. SoTJRwiNE. You were trying to get an advance from him to publish
Mr. Mattjsow. I was trying to get him to put me in contact with a publisher.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, as a matter of fact, what you asked him for was money to subsidize the writing of your book, was it not ?
INIr. Matusow. Well, it is six of one and half a dozen of the other, sir.
Mr. SoTJRwiNE. No, it is not. You have attempted yourself to make a distinction, Mr. Matusow, between asking for a publisher and asking for money to subsidize you in writing a book.
Mr. Matusow. Sir, you have corrected me and I have accepted your correction,
Mr. SouRWTNE. You are now stating there is no difference in your mind between asking someone to get you a publisher and getting money to help subsidize the writing of the book ?
Mr. Matusow. For your purposes there is no difference; you are splitting hairs.
Mr. SouRwiNE. For your purposes, was there any difference?
Mr. Matusow. At that time ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes.
Mr. Matusow. The esthetic differences, the values involved there, it would take too long to go into.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You were trying
Mr. Matusow. Yes ; there was a difference.
Mr. SouRWiNE. ^Yhi{t was the difference ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, it will take a little bit of a philosophical dis- sertation, and I don't want to take the connnittee's time up with it.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Well, in the case of Richard Brown, which were you trying to do, get an advance on the publication of the book or get a subsidization of the writing?
Mr. Matusow. My recollection is not too clear on what it was.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You testified very promptly when I asked you the question.
INIr. ISfATusow. T said the recollection is not an articulate one.
Mr. SouRwi>JE. Did you know Mr. Richard A. Brown?
Mr. Matusow. T had" met him— no, wait a minute, hold on. All of a sudden it dawns on me it was not Mr. Brown whom I talked to. It was another gentleman of a Committee for an Effective Congress.
Mr. SouRwiNE. To whom did you talk?
Mr. Matusow. I forget his name. If you have it there you can refresh my recollection.
INIr. SouRWTNE. Now, you said to your recollection it was another gentleman. I want to know who it was.
Mr. Matusow. I don't know who it was.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Are you now stating you did not talk to ]\Ir. Richard A. Brown to get money for your book?
Mr. JNIatx^sow. I was thinking of a Committee for an Effective Con- gress; all of a sudden it dawns on me I don't know a Mr. Richard A. Brown.
Mr. SoTTRwiNE. Let us stick to your testimony, whether you tried to borrow money, borrow any money from Richard A. Browii or tried to get money from Richard A. Brown for subsidizine your book.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 489
Mr. Mati !S()W. Now, 1 don't recall that ; I didn't talk to him, but there was another gentleman I talked to.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you know him 'i
Mr. Matusow. The other gentleman?
Mr. SouKwiXE, Yes.
Mr. Matltsow. I never met, but I don't know the other gentleman.
Mr. SouKWiNE. Did you know him before you talked to him about getting money for your book^
Mr. Matusow. Well, someone suggested I call him up and make an appointment.
Mr. SotRwiNE. Who was that ?
Mr. ]MATUS(nv. I don't know.
Air. Sour WINE. How did you come to a Committee for an Eilective Congress for your book 'i
Mr. ]Matusoav. I think they were out to destroy McCarthyism, and that was my purpose, so we had something in common.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you get any money there ^
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever receive money, directly or indirectly, from any newspaper columnist other than Mr. Drew Pearson ?
Mr. Matusow. Not to my recollection.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you ever receive any money, directly or in- directly, from any radio or television broadcaster or commentator other than Mr. Drew Pearson ?
Mr. Mati'sow. Outside of normal work as a performer or actor on television ; no, sir; not to my recollection.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever receive any money, directly or indi- rectly, from an employee of a newspaper or of a columnist or of a radio broadcaster or commentator other than Mr. Drew Pearson ?
Mr. Matusow. Gadzooks, I know a lot of people in the radio and TV industry, and I might have indirectly or directly received some money, but not for the purpose of my book, to my recollection, if that is your question.
Mr. SouRwaNE. Did you ever receive any money from Mr. David Kerr?
Mi\ Matusow. "^Vlio ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. David Kerr.
Mr. Matusow. I don't know who he is.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever receive any money from Mr. David Karr?
Mr. Matusow. I don't know the name.
Mr. SouRWiNE. After you gave Drew Pearson something for his column in January, did you subsequently give
.Mr. Matusow. January 1953.
Mr. SouRwiNE (continuing) . Give him something else ?
Mr. Matusow. January 1953.
Mr. SouRwiNE. That was the only January in which you gave him anything ; was it not ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I just thought the record should be clear.
Mr. SouRwiNE. After you gave Mr. Drew Pearson for his column in January 1953, did you give him anything else ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I appeared on his TV show in 1954.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Didn't you give him some notes that were used on his television show in May of 1953 ?
490 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COIMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. Those are the ones I gave him in January.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Those are the same ones you gave him in January ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. For which you received $250 ?
Mr. Matusow. As a loan.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever have an arrangement with Mr. Jack Anderson to furnish him with information for Drew Pearson?
Mr. Matusow. No arrangement. Jack Anderson is a friend of mine, and I said "If I ever run into any news items that I think you can use I will give it to you," and it wasn't on the basis of cash and carry, either.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you furnish him with any news items ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I don't recall if I did or didn't. In conversation he might have picked something up from me, but I don't know if it was ever used.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever get any money from Jack Anderson ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, I think I once borrowed $5 from him — paid him back the next day.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Is that all ?
Mr. Matusow. That is all I can recall.
Mr. SouRwiNE. As a matter of fact, Mr. Anderson is not a friend of yours, as you attempt to imply, is he ?
Mr. Matusow. I had dinner with him tlie other night, so I presume he is a friend. He did not act unfriendly.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Since you have been down here ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. For this hearing ?
Mr. Matusow. Last week. I believe last Monday night.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You testified, did you not, that you were in Wash- ington in May of 1953, contacting certain people down here in an attempt to sell the book or get it published ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Who did you contact for that purpose ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall, other than the names that have already come into the hearing. I do not recall any other.
Mr. SouRWiNE. You have stated that you discussed the book and a sample chapter dealing with Senator McCarthy, with a Mr. David Irons ?
Mr, Matusow. Sir, you have pointed out something which I was greatly shocked by — greatly hurt by it, because I have a great deal of admiration for Mr. Irons. I would rather you don't discuss it. I did not know
Mr. SouRwiNE. You have stated that you discussed the book and a sample chapter with Mr. Irons, have you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. That sample chapter did not say anything about lying on the witness stand ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; I never left the impression that I told Mr. Irons that lie.
Mr. SouRWixE. Did you ever offer your book to Simon & Schuster?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. When?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall the date — last year.
Mr. SouRwiNE. What did you ask for at that time?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 491
Mr. Matcsow, I believe $1,500 advance.
Mr. SouRA\aNE. Who did you talk with?
Mr. Matitsow. Mr. Barnes.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Joe Barnes?
Mr. Matcsow. Joseph Barnes; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did vou at that time state that you had documenta- tion?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. A trunkf ul ?
Mr. ilATusow. Oh, I might have said a filing cabinet full.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did they ask to let a lawyer look at the documents?
Mr. Matusow. 1 said a lawyer will have to go to my home or the place the documents are at. They said, "No ; the lawyer is not going to go up there; you have to bring it down here," so we didn't do any- thing.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever offer your book to the New York Post ?
Mr. IVIatusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Who did you see there ?
Mr. Matusow. Mr. Wechsler.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you talk with Mr. William Dufty?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was your proposal rejected?
Mr. IVIatusow. At the time, it was ; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. How much did you ask for your book at that time?
Mr. ]\Iatusow. I don't recall.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did your book at that time say anything about lying on the witness stand ?
Mr. Matusow. The outline, so far as I am concerned, had it in there, but I didn't put it down in black and white because of many reasons.
Mr. SouRWiNE. It was the same chapter about McCarthy that you had at that time and were peddling around, were you not ?
Mr. Matusow. And still is in the book.
Mr. SouRw^iNE. Did you ever take the manuscript of your book to Mr. Paul Sand, executive editor of the New York Post ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe he was. No, I don't think — well, I know he saw the manuscript— I was told he did. We discussed the book prior to the manuscript being written.
Mr. SouRwixE. Did you take the manuscript of the book to Harper's ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes.
Mr. SouRWiNE. To Nester?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Do you know Dan Buckley ?
Mr. IVIatusow. I do, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Who is he ?
Mr. ISIatusow. Dan Buckley is a former investigator for the com- mittee that was investigating Senator McCarthy's charges in Wheel- ing, W. Va., who resigned that committee and denounced that commit- tee, and then, through that, forced Senator McCarthy, according to Mr. Buckley, to appoint him as assistant counsel to the McCarthy Committee, And Mr. Buckley has since accused me of trying to blackmail.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever threaten Mr. Buckley ?
492 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. jVIatusow. He is not worth threatening.
Tlie Chairman. Wait a minute. Answer it.
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; I never did.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever ask him for money ?
Mr. Matusow. Not to my recollection, but the reverse is tiiie.
Mr. SouRwiXE. Did you ever tell him you were desperately in need of money and would get it by hook or by crook ?
Mr. Matusow. I do not believe I ever said that to Mr. I^uckley.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you tell Mr. Buckley you had written a book in which his name was mentioned ^
Mr. Matusow. Very possible.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you tell him Senator McCarthy's name also was mentioned ?
Mr. Matusow. It is very possible.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you tell him this book was derogatory to both him and Senator McCarthy?
Mr. Matusow. I don't think Mr. Buckley is worth too much space in the book. I think I might have said it was derogatory — not de- rogatory, but I think I might have said, told some of the truth about the activities of the McCarthy forces in this country.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you tell him you had destroyed the manuscript of this book ?
Mr. Matusow. I said I had destroyed a vindictive, lying type of manuscript that I had written; was now writing an objective book.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Had you, in fact, destroyed the manuscript of this book?
Mr. Matusow. Of a book; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRW^NE. Did you tell him you had been oti'ered $20,000 for that manuscript?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall what I told him. It is very possible I said almost anything then to Mr. Buckley about that.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was it true that you had been offered $20,000 for that manuscript ?
Mr. Matusow. No; but the record should be straight about Mr. Buckley being a naive individual whom people appease a lot and whose leg is pulled quite frequently, and I think you know that, sir, if you know Sir. Buckley, and in saying things like this to Mr. Buck- ley jokingly
The Chairman. Wait a minute ; wait a minute. You ha\e answered the question.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you talk with Mr. Buckley at the Carroll Arms Hotel an afternoon in April 1951 ?
Mr. Matusow. Very possible.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Weil, did you or did you not?
Mr. Matusoav. It could have been April ; it could have been jNIarch : it could have been May, or it could have been in 1953 — talked to Mr. I^uckley on a number of occasions.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you talk with him on an occasion in the Car- roll Arms Hotel when you told him that you wanted to talk with him privately ?
Mr. Matusow. I doubt it.
Mr. SouRwiNE. There were witnesses to this occasion, Mv. Matusow.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 493
Mr. Maittsow. Very possible that they can be witnesses to some statement tliat people now think I made.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ask him for his telephone number ?
Mr. Matusow. Dan Buckley w^as with somebody. Yes, I believe I said, ''Dan, what is your phone number in New York ^ We will get together when you get up there and chat."
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you call him on the telephone a night or so later?
Mr. Matusow. Did I ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Yes.
Mr. Matusow. Might have ; might not have. I don't recall.
Mr. SouRwiNE. You do not recall?
Mr. Matusow. I might have called him shortly thereafter to tell him I was working in a night club down here in Washington, why did not he come by and catch the act. In fact, I recall having told him about that.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you in a telephone conversation remind him of your previous conversation with him about the book you had written ?
Mr. Matusow. I did not.
Mr. SouRwiNE, Did you ask him what it would be worth to him to have his name eliminated from your book ?
Mr. Maitjsow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you tell him you needed a thousand dollars?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you tell him that for that amount you would eliminate his name from the book ?
Mr. Matusow. That is ridiculous, sir ; I never said such a thing.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you later offer to him to eliminate his name from the book for $500 ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did he refuse that, and did not you thereafter tell him that you would accept the loan of a thousand dollars.
Mr. Matusow. I have never attempted to blackmail Mr. Buckley or anybody else.
The Chairman^ . Answer the question.
Mr. Matusow. No, sir, I never made such a statement to Mr. Buckley.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you on the occasion of that telephone conver- sation with Mr. Buckley tell him that you had made contact with the officials of the Communist Party, and that you had been assured that the Communist Party would guarantee to take care of you finan- cially if you would do certain things the Party wanted?
Mr. Matusow. I am accused of being a liar — no, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you tell him that guaranty was to materialize shortly ?
Mr. Matusow. "Wliat? Wliat did you say? T did not hear that.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you tell him that this guaranty from the Com- munist Party was going to materialize shortly?
Mr. Matusow. Definitely no, with a capital ''N" and underlined.
Mr. SouRwiTSTE. Did Mr. Buckley ask you if you meant that if you got money from him you would then not cooperate with the Communist Party?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir. No such statements were made.
494 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Sour-wine. Did you, Mr. Matuso-vv, ever state that you had lived in Greenwich Village with two other persons, one of whom was a sexual deviate?
Mr. Matusow. "What ?
Mr. SouRwixE. Did you ever state that you had lived in Greenwich Village with two other pei-sons, one of whom was a sexual deviate ?
Mr. IVIatusow. I don't believe I made any such statement.
Mr. SoTJRWiNE. Did you ever state to anyone that you have lived in Greenwich Village with a Negro girl ?
Mr. Mattjsgw. I don't want to raise the race issue. I don't believe T ever stated that.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you ever state that you and a Negro girl, with whom you lived in Greenwich Village, were both Communist Party members ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall any such statement.
Mr. SouEwiNE. Did you, in fact, ever make such a statement?
(There was a crash.)
Mr. Matusow. That was Johnny stepping aromid.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you, in fact, ever live in Greenwich Village with a Negro girl ?
Mr. ]Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever state, to show what good party members you were, you and this girl intended to adopt 2 children, 1 Chinese and 1 Negro ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Chairman, I have here an affidavit signed by Martha N. and John Edmiston, of Warren County, Ohio. I would like to offer this affidavit for the record and for consideration of the committee, as to whether the Edmistons or either of them should be called as a witness.
Mr. IVIatusow. "What else could you expect from professional witnesses.
The CiiAiRMAisr. Now, wait a minute. That is a gratuitous state- ment, and it will not go in the record.
Senator Daniel. Do not judge all of them by yourself.
Mr. Matusow. I know the Edmistons quite well, sir. I can judge them by my standards.
Mr. SouRWiNE. That was my next question, sir.
The Chairman. It will be admitted.
(The Edmiston affidavit, dated February 14, 1955, and consisting of 6 pages, was marked "Exhibit 30," and appears below :)
Exhibit No. 30 Affipavit
State of Ohio, Butler County, ss:
Before me, the undersigned authority, this day personally appeared Mabtha N. Edmiston and John J. Edmiston, otherwise known as Ed Edmiston, of Waynesville, AVarren County, Ohio, to me well known and known to be the persons who have signed the following statement, and, being by me first duly sworn, did depose and say :
That Martha N. Edmiston now is Public Relations Director for Aeronca Manufacturing Corporation of Middletown, Ohio, and that previously, and during most of the time when the facts related herein transpired, was Public Informatioii OflScer at the Wriffbt-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, Ohio.
That .John J. (Ed) Edmiston now is a reporter for the Middletown Journal, of Middletown, Ohio, and tliat during part of the time when the facts related
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 495
herein transpired, he was a reporter for the Dayton Journal-Herald, of Dayton, Ohio, and later was engaged in publicity and public relations work in Dayton, Ohio.
That during the years 1940 and 1941 both AflBants herein were employed as undercover operatives for the Federal Bureau of Investigation, engaged in re- porting the activities of the Communist Party ; and, employed as such, were affiliated with the Communist Party Sections in Columbus and Cincinnati, Ohio: and that they joined the Communist Party at the request of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, reporting to FBI agents in Columbus and Cincinnati.
That on or about .July 12, l.S. and 14. 1950, they gave sworn testimony of tJieir experiences while so employed by the Federal Bureau of Investigation before the Committee on Un-American Activities of the U. S. House of Rep- resentatives, and attention is invited to a printed report of said hearings, published by the House of Representatives.
The Affiant Martha N. Edmiston further deposes and says :
Tliat during the late summer or early fall of 1951 she first met one Hakvey Marshall Matusow while she was chief of the Press Section of the Public Information Office, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, Dayton, Ohio; and that at that time Captain Howard L. Hensley, now believed to be residing in Oakland, California, was Public Information Officer, a post to which she succeeded a few weeks later.
That on the occasion when she first met him, Matusow was a staff sergeant in the U. S. Air Force,, assigned to Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
That at the time, Matusow told the Affiant and Captain Hensi.ey that he had been referred to the Public Information Office by a chaplain assigned to the Air Force Base : that Matusow related that he had told the chaplain he had been a Communist Party member in New York City for approximately five years ; that during the last year of his membership he had experienced a "change of heart" toward Communism, and for some months had reported information on Communist activities to the Federal Bureau of Investigation ; and that he had been expelled from the Communist Party early in 1951.
That Matusow related that he had told the chaplain he was anxious to "clear my name" and to instruct youth on the dangers of Communism as he had learned them ; that he wished clearance to speak to youth groups on the subject ; that he wished to regain the faith and confidence of his parents, who, he said, had been made unhappy by his Communist activities and affiliations, and to merit their devotion to him, particularly since he was their only living son, his only brother having been killed in service during World War 11.
That Matusow said the chaplain had advised him to take his problem to the Public Information Office since that office had jurisdiction over the speaking engagements of Air Force military personnel.
That the Affiant Martha N. Edmiston then asked Matusow whether he had offered to testify concerning his Communist experience before the Committee on Un-American Activities, or any other Congressional body assigned to Communist investigation, in an attempt to "clear his name;" that Matusow said he had not.
That the Affiant Martha N. Edmiston and Captain Hensley then asked Matusow whether he had talked with, or was known to, the Dayton office of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and that Matusow replied in the negative. But that he told the Affiant and Captain Hensley that he had advised the Office of Special Investigations at the Air Force Base of his Communist activities.
That the Affiant Martha N. Edmiston and Captain Hensley instructed Matusow that he could not speak publicly on Communism without permission from Higher Authority, and advised liim against any public utterance on the 8ul>ject since lie admittedly had not attained a status of privilege by appearing before Congress or a Court of Record.
That upon being advised that the Affiants herein formerly had been assigned by the Federal Bureau of Investigation to report on Communist activities, and that they subsequently had testified before the Committee on Un-American Activities, as hereinabove related, Matusow a.sked the Affiant Martha N. Edmis- ton to assist him to clear his name and to expose Communism in the New York City area by helping to bring his facts to the attention of the Committee on Un-American Activities.
That the Affiant then referred Matusow to her husband. Affiant John J. Edmiston, who might assist Matusow in what api)eared to her to be a worthy and patriotic undertaking ; that at the time Matusow impressed her as an hum- ble, appealing young man, sincere in his expressed wish to be regarded as a loyal American and to do his part in combating the evils of Communism.
496 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMIMTNISM
That, upon Matusow's leaving her office, the Affiant immediately called Harlan D. Shaw, FBI agent in Dayton, advising him of the information Matusow had given her, and seeking coulirination of Matusow's statement that he had supplied information to the New York office of the FBI.
The Affiant John J. Edmiston further deposes and says:
That on an evening following his wife's meeting Matusow, the Affiant received a telephone call from Matusow asking for an interview ; and that night the Affiant met Matusow in the Century Bar in Dayton, Ohio, a tavern then fre- quented by newspai)er people.
That on this occasion Matusow reiterated substantially what he had told the Affiant Martha N. Edmiston and that some of the conversation and parts of his narrative of Communist Party experiences in New York were overheai'd by R. Marshall Stross, City Editor, and Mrs. Eleanor C. Long, Financial Editor, of the Dayton Journal Herald, who occupied a tavern booth with Matusow and the Affiant.
That upon hearing Matusow's plausible story, and believing that it was true, the Affiant John J. Edmiston suggested that Matusow prepare an autobiographi- cal account of his entire life, outlining his reasons for entering the Communist Part.v, his experiences as a member and an explanation of what underlay his so-called "change of heart." And the Affiant further suggested that Matusow prepare a list of names, addresses and descriptions, as best he could remember them, of persons who, to his certain knowledge, were members of the Communist Party. That he sliould write all that lie knew to be true, and nothing else : and that when this material was prepared, iioth Affiants would question him thor- oughly, and if convinced of the complete truth of his narrative, the Affiants would bring Matusow's information to the attention of an investigator for the Committee on Un-American Activities.
Thereafter for several weeks, the Affiants had frequent conferences with Matusow and he usually was a weekend guest at their home, near Waynesville, Ohio. On these occasions both Affiants questioned him on various phases of his Communist activities.
That Affiants acquainted Matusow ^^•ith the formula for identification of Com- munist Party members which was observed in their testimony before the Com- mittee on Un-American Activities in July 1950, which formula is described in the Committee's report of the hearing.
They rejieatedly warned Matusow that he must offer only information he knew to be absolutely factual. They warned of the irreparable damage which could be done to persons falsely identified as Communists. They also warned him of the injustice which could be done through implications and generalities. And at all times they insisted to him that the testimony adduced before Courts and Congressional investigating bodies must be imimpeachable.
That the Affiants also advised Matusow that the deportment of a witness before Congress must at all times be above reproach, and that he must observe the deference due to the dignity of Congress ; and that they strove to correct some of Matusow's crude mannerisms, which appeared to them to be "hang- overs" from his several years of Communist Party training and association, notable bad table manners, overbearing treatment of waiters and other service employes, constant nervous interruption of the conversation of others and insistence on being the center of attention of all persons present.
That between the date of the interview with Affiant John J. Edmiston at the Century Bar and sometime, either in late September or early October 1951, Matusow prepared notes which he represented to contain the facts of his early life and Communist Party experiences to the best of his recollection ; that the material in these notes was reviewed by both Affiants with Matusow : that the Affiants concluded that his account of his experiences was truthfully told and that his information was reliable.
Accordingly, soon thereafter, the Affiant John J. Edmiston telephoned Don Appell, investigator for the Committee on Un-American Activities, relating briefly some of the contents of Matusow's notes and his statements supporting them.
That Appet>l came to Dayton, Ohio, within a few days: that he was driven from Dayton to the Wright-Patterson Air Force Base by the Affiant Martha N. Edmiston to call upon officers at the Air Force Base and to observe proper military channels in arranging a series of interviews with IMatusow at the Dayton Biltmore Hotel. That although Appell for the most part was driven about the city and the airbase by the Affiant Martha N. I']dmiston in her own car, the Air Force officials cooperated with Matusow by supplying him with a
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 497
staff car and military driver for trips to and from the Air Force Base over a l\v(f-day jteriod required for the interviews.
That at the conclusion of his interviews with Matusow, Appei.l told the Afliants he was convinced that while Matusow's information was limited, it nevertheless would be worth the attention of his Committee.
That Appell, advised the Affiants he had given a subpoena to Matusow to appear before the Committee on Un-American Activities, and that Matusow would be subject to call. Also, in the presence of the Affiants, Appelt. instructed Matusow not to reveal the fact that he had been called upon to testify until the (Vmimittee approved the hearing and properly announced the fact.
That, nevertheless, word of the proposed forthcoming hearing was spread among the enlisted personnel at the Air Force Base; and when the Affiants con- fronted Matusow with the "leak" he denied he was responsible for it.
That on or about October 19, 1951, Matusow completed a typewritten memo- randum, containing more than 70 pages, which purported to sketch his early life and to give a narrative account of his experiences in the Communist Party. A reproduction of a carbon copy of this memorandum is attached to this Affidavit, marked "Exhibit A." At some time not far from that date, he prepared a typewritten list of names of persons he identified as members of the Communist Party, containing more than 30 pages. A reproduction of several pages of this list is attached, marked "Exhibit B."
That Matusow repeatedly had told both Affiants, as he reportedly told Appell, that the information contained in his memorandum and his list of Communist membership constituted all the information he could relate truthfully concerning the Communist Party and its members, as known to him.
Late in November or early in December 1951, Matusow was summoned to Washington, D. C, to appear before the Committee on Un-American Activities in executive hearing. The Affiant, John J. Edmiston, drove with him to AVash- iiiu'ton in the Affiant's car upon Matusow's insistence that the Affiant accompany him.
It was on this occasion, to the best of the Affiant John J. Edmiston's recol- lection, that Matusow proposed to visit other Congressional investigating com- mittees for the purpose of offering his testimony on Communist matters. The Affiant then told Matusow that if he attempted such a breach of faith with the Committee on Un-American Activities, the Affiant would so advise Appell.
That the Affiant then reminded Matusow that his opportunity to testify and "clear his name" had been afforded by the Committee on Un-American Activities and that the Committee had an investment of traveling expenses and research in him.
That after Matusow and the Affiant John J. Edmiston returned to the Dayton area from the executive hearing of the Committee on Un-American Activities, a number of other events transpired which led the Affiants to reconstruct their views of Matusow's character and general responsibility and his emotional stability, although they then continued to believe that the statements in his memorandum and list of Communist membership were true.
That the Affiants noted a change in Matusow's attitude from the guise of an unassuming airman who had appealed to them for help and guidance to clear his name and perform a public service, to an overbearing individual who seemed suddenly to have been overcome by a sense of his importance as a public figure^ that they began hearing complaints from enlisted men and officers at the Wright- Patterson Air Force Base ; that Matusow was "throwing his weight," and boast- ing that he was a "national figure."
That Matusow persisted in this contention that his role as an informer to the Federal Bureau of Investigation for a scant few months would be the basis of nationwide publicity ; and that he outlined to the Affiants his plan to write a motion picture of his life — in which he proposed to play the stellar role. That the Affiants attempted to disabuse him of these ideas, pointing out the notable public services of such former Communists as Ben Gitlow, Elizabeth Bentley, Ben Mandel. Whittaker Chambers, Maurice Malkin and others whose sincere I onversion from Communism involved no histrionics.
And Affiant Martha N. Edmiston further deposes Matusow stated to her on several occasions that he had been subject to "crying fits" and periods of de- spondency ; and that he also disclosed that he had undergone psychiatric treat- ments at the Base Hospital, Wright-Patterson Air Force Base.
And Affiant John J. Edmiston further deposes and says that Matusow had described to him that at some time during the postwar period he had suffered
498 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
a "nervous breakdown' and had retired to a secluded place in New York State to recover.
The Affiants further depose that some time prior to Matusow's appearance in open hearing before the Committee- on Un-American Activities (on or about February 0, 1952) he was employed as an investigator for the Commission on Un-American Activities of the General Assembly of Ohio ; that during the course of this employment as investigator of Communism in Ohio, which, as they recol- lect, was during the spring of that year, other incidents occurred which reflected on ]\Iatusow's character.
That at the beginning of Matusow's employment with the Ohio Commission, the Affiants loaned him a car to use in travels incident to his employment. That on or about the night of February 1, 1952, the Affiant John J. Edmiston was told by the Waynesville police officer that Matusow, while driving the Affiant's car, had "skipped" from a Springfield, Ohio, filling station after obtaining approxi- mately ^5.00 worth of fuel and oil and that the matter had been placed in the hands of the prosecuting attorney of Clark County, Ohio. That, although the Waynesville police officer offered to settle the matter by paying the bill himself, he said he was told by the prosecutor there were circumstances in the case which could not be settled by the mere payment of the bill. That JMatusow later reproached the ^Vffiant for his failure to "protect" JNIatusow on the bill.
That during the said open hearing in Washington, in fact, on the first day of Matusow's testimony, the death of King George of England was reported in Washington newspapers and in newspapers all over the nation, whereupon Matusow ranted that he had been "robbed'" of his "publicity" in connection with the hearing, declaring that his testimony was entitled to "front page"' treatment by newspapers, and that he repeatedly stressed his "rotten break" in the press during his stay in Washington and thereafter.
And Affiant John J. Edmiston further deposes that at a time following the open hearing mentioned above, Matusow requested tliis Affiant to order the Third National Bank & Trust Co. of Dayton, Ohio, to stop payment on a cheque Matusow had given to the Congressional Hotel, Washington, D. C, in payment of hotel bills incurred there, and this the AiRant declined to do.
That on February S, 1952, Affiants delivered to Matusow a certificate of title to the automobile they had loaned him, receiving his promissory note in sum of $300, due May 15, 1952, on his representation of need for the car in connection with his further work for the Ohio Commission on L'n-American Activities. That, as he agreed, Matusow paid $124.00 on said note on February 23, 1952, which payment was credited on the note; but that on May 15, 1952, :Matusow left Dayton, where he then resided, to go to New York, where he li^'ed for a while at the residence of his parents.
That after repeated telephone calls to New York, and talks with Matusow's mother, and later talks with Matusow, the Affiant Maktha Edmiston received payment of the balance of the note indebtedness, after several months, as she remembers. A reproduction of the note is attached hereto, marked "Exhibit C."
That, meanwhile, the Affiants learned of other disturbing activities by Matusow which caused them complete lack of confidence in him. And these matters are recited herein on information and belief, and it is the belief of the Affiants that more suitable evidence is obtainable.
That they were advised by Alan Pritchard, former reporter for the Dayton Daily News, Dayton, Ohio, that Matusow asked him for the newspaper's file on Antioch College, Yellow Springs, Ohio ; that Matusow examined the file and was told by Pritchard that he would find nothing in the file which would help him in his then current investigation of Antioch College, undertaken, he said, for the Ohio Commission on Un-American Activities. That Pritchard reported Matusow told him words to this effect: "Never mind, if the files don't show anything, I'll make a case out of them anyhow."
That on reliable information and belief, Matusow was observed rifling students' wardrobes and effects in a dormitory at Antioch College, but escaped the campus without being detained, and that this presumably occurred while he was em- ployed by the Ohio Commission.
And Affiants further depose that Matusow told them he had "lifted" material from the Affiants' experiences in the Communist Part.v and given them as his firsthand information in executive hearing before the House Committee.
And Affiants further depose that, although they have refused consistently to have any further dealings or relations with Matusow since May 15, 1952, he has sought repeatedly to renew his former relations with them, that on several occasions he has placed long distance telephone calls to their residence and on
STRATEGY AXD TACTICS OF WORLD COAIMUNISM 499
each instance has been told by the Affiant Maetha X. Edmiston that neither of the Affiants herein wish any further relations, social or business, with him.
The Affiant Martha N. Edmiston further deposes that on a day during the summer of 1953. although Matusow had been told repeatedly that neither of the Affiants wished to see him again, he drove by the home of the Affiants, near Wayuesville, Ohio, and failing to get on the premises, parked his car and trailer on a country road in front of her mother's home nearby.
That the Affiant drove up to the spot at that time; that Matusow then told her he wished to visit the Affiants at their home and "right myself," asking that he be '"forgiven" for his behavior ; that he then stated he was "through with being a witness'" before Courts and Congressional committees ; that he had "made a mess in Washington." Thereupon the Affiant told him he had only himself to blame for any "mess in Washington : " that he had lied in his testimony concern- ing Antioch College and had lied on other occasions.
That Matusow then told the Affiant the newspapers had "misquoted" and "misrepresented" him in their accounts of his testimony on Antioch College ; and Matusow then sidestepped the Affiant's direct accusation that he had lied further, talking about his personal affairs, stating he was unhappy because the Affiants had lost faith in him, and said he was going to a place he called Silver Springs, Colorado, to "see no one and talk to no one." Thereupon the Affiant told him if he would do just that, he would be doing the entire nation a favor, and drove off.
That this was the last occasion when either of the Affiants have seen Matusow in person, but that in February 1954, Affiants received a letter from him, enclos- ing a carbon copy of a poem he said he had composed.
A reproduction of this letter, marked "Exhibit D," and a reproduction of the carbon copy of the ix)em, marked "Exhibit E," are attached hereto and are sub- mitted without comment.
And the Affiants herein further depose and say that the statements contained in this affidavit are true, except for those which are recited on information and belief, and that those are believed to be true.
In witness whereof the Affiants Martha N. Edmiston and John J. Edmiston, sometimes known as Ed Edmiston, residents of Waynesville, Warren County, Ohio, hereunto have set their signatures this 14th day of February 1955, at Middletown in Butler County, Ohio.
(s) Martha N. Edmiston. (s) John J. Edmiston.
Subscribed and sworn before me, a Notary Public in and for said County and State, on the date and in the place above named.
[seal] (s) Tilmon a. Ellison,
Notary Public, State of Ohio. My commission expires April 1, 1955.
Mr. Faulkxer. Does that mean that will be printed in the record before it is verified by witnesses ?
Mr. SouRwiNE. This is an affidavit.
Mr. Faulkner. Then I am to assume that any affidavit that is sub- mitted to this committee, without the contents being verified, except by the affiant of that affidavit, it goes into the record ?
Mr. Sourwixe. What is your point ?
Mr. Faulkxer. My point is that I think that the people who made the affidavit should be brought before the committee and cross-exam- ined as to the contents and the truthfulness of this affidavit.
The Chairmax. That is something that we are going to consider, Mr. Faullvner.
Mr. Faulkner. All right.
Mr. Sourwixe. Do you know Martha and John Edmiston ?
Mr. Matusow\ I know Ed Edmiston — I believe he is called — his name was John — I believed it was changed to Ed.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you know him in 1951 ?
Mr. Matusow. I did.
]Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, as a matter of fact, what you said about the name is purely gratuitous. You know his nickname is "Ed," and his name is John ?
500 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. I was informed by him that he had changed it, or was going to change it legally to "Ed."
Mr, SouRwixE. His name is "Ed,"' in the same way that yo^^r name is "Mat," the first syllable of the last name, and he is frequently called that.
Mr. Matusow. You are informing me of something I know nothing about. I thought it had been legally changed, but it is the same John Edmiston.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you know him in 1951 ?
Mr. Matusow. I did.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you go to see Martha Edmiston at Wright Field in September 1961 ?
Mr. Matusow. I never, at Wright Field.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you ever go to see her ?
Mr. Matusow. I never.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Mr. Matusow. I never, there.
The Chairman. Give the facts in connection with it.
Mr. Matusow. I went to see the base public relations officer. Wliile there, I was introduced to Martha Edmiston.
Senator Welker. Mr. Chairman, maybe I am confused. Is it not a fact that you went to see the chaplain and he suggested that you go see the Edmistons ?
Mr. Matusow. He suggested that I see the base public relations officer, and I believe you will find that in the book.
Senator Welker. Then as a result of that, then did you see the Edmistons?
Mr. Matusow. That is right, sir.
Senator Welker. And for a long time you were on friendly re- lations ?
Mr. Matusow. For a few months ; yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. What caused you to have a difference of opinion?
Mr. Matusow. I don't care to go into that, sir. I could go into it, but it has nothing to do with this case, and I think it would embarrass the Edmistons. I do not want to make those type of statements. Do you want me to tell, sir — I will tell you why, but I would rather not, because it will embarrass the Edmistons, not me.
Senator Welker. Well, I will leave it to the committee chairman.
The Chairman. I did not catch the question. What is the question ?
Senator Welker. I asked him what caused the difference of opin- ion, the enmity between the two after their prior friendly relations.
The Chairman. I think it is material.
Mr. Matusow. If you direct me to, sir, I will.
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Matusow. Wlien I knew the Edmistons, Mr. John Edmiston was a habitual drunkard, and you could not get along with him — it is just that simple — never stayed sober. He was a professional witness, could not stay sober — testified before the House Committee in 1950.
Senator Welker. As a matter of fact, you were doing a little drink- ing in those days, too, were you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Sir, I don't think you can find anybody in this world who has ever seen me drunk.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMXTNISM 501
Senator Welker. Well, as I recall yesterday, certainly you gave the committee the inference.
Mr. MATt^sow. I said I was a teetotaler.
Senator Welker. That you turned around and saw your picture in the bar.
Mr. Mathtsow. I didn't say I was drunk, though.
Senator Welker. No, I did not ask you whether you were drunk.
Mr. IVIatusow. All right.
Senator Welker. And you said you weighed some 230 pounds.
Mr. ]\L\.TusoAv. I did, sir.
Senator Weliver. I believe I interrogated you with respect to whether you were drinking water or ginger ale or something.
Mr. ]\L^Tusow. I said I believe I was drinking Scotch— I was living high off the hog, and I looked like one.
Senator Welker. You were drinking Scotch then?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Senator Welker. And you are 5 foot 8 — went up to the size of 230 pounds ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Senator Welker. That would be an interesting fact for the jury. I am through.
Is there any other reason why you differed with the Edmistons?
Mr. ]\L^TTTsow. I just could not get along with John Edmiston.
Senator Welker. Wliy ?
Mr. Matusow. Because the man would get drunk and get off into all kinds of rages and just go out of his head, so to speak, and just did not get along, that is all.
Senator Welker. Is that one of the reasons why the Air Force had trouble with you and you hated the Air Force because they sent you over to see them so they might comfort you ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir. I am not trying to leave an inference about his wife. I am talking about him.
Senator Welker. I did not get that last answer.
Mr. Matusow. I said I was not talking about Mrs, Edmiston. I was talking about Mr. Edmiston.
Senator Welker. I see.
Mr. Sourw^ine. "V-N^ien you went to see the Edmistons, or Mrs. Ed- miston— I will withdraw that question. You testified you did not go there to see them ; is that right ?
Mr. Matusow. No; I went to see the base public-relations officer.
Mr. Sourwine. When you went there, did you know in advance that you were going to see Mrs. Edmiston ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Mr. SouRwixE. Did you know she worked in that office ?
Mr. Matusow. A vague recollection — I don't even know whether I did or not.
Mr. Sourwine. Do you know whether she existed ?
Mr. JNIatusow. I don't recall.
Mr. Sourwine. Did you know anything about her?
Mr. Matusow. Don't recall,
Mr. SouKWiNE. Did you, with the assistance and encouragement of the Edmistons, prepare a written account of your experiences as a Communist ?
502 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. Well, with the assistance, through the discussions with the Edmistons, I made some statements about my Communist activities.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Is that the 71-page document which went into the record here yesterday?
Mr. Matusow. I talked about that, certain documents, sir, and again, sir, as I did yesterday, I will have to decline to answer that question on the basis of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you in connection with that document prepare a list of persons personally known by you to be Communists?
Mr. Matusow. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds of the fifth amendment to the United States Constitution.
Mr. SouRwixE. Did you state in your book False Witness, in chap- ter II, referring to the preparation of this 71-page affidavit, "This phase of preparation in my mind was for the sole purpose of clearing my name so that I could be an average GI" ?
Mr. JNIatusow. Well, I don't know just what you are talking about, this phase of what, sir? That might be a sentence in my book — very possibly.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Was that sentence in your book referring
Mr. Matusow. Let me look for it. It would be easier. -I don't want to take the committee's time. The sentence could be in my book — I would say it is.
Mr. SouRwixE. All right, sir. Did that affidavit then contain the truth?
Mr. Matusow. "V^Hiat affidavit, sir?
Mr. SouRwiNE. Did you not give an affidavit to the truth of the 71-page document in question ?
Mr. M/VTusow. I don't know what 71-page document you are talking about, but I don't recall giving any afiidavit to anybody at that period of time.
Mr. SouRwiNE. I am talking about the document that went into the record yesterday.
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall any affidavit, sir. I am not — I told you yesterday about certain documents put in the record that I would not answer that question on the basis of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, on the occasion of your first talk with Mrs. Edmiston, do you remember talking with her for some time about the experiences of Howard "Howdy" Ensley?
Mr. JMatusow. I don't recall. We discussed Captain Ensley on a number of occasions. He was a friend of theirs and base public relations officer.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Ensley is not important, except for the purpose of trying to refresh your recollection about that occasion when you first met Mrs. Edmiston.
Mr. ]Matusow. The recollections I have about the conversation dealt mainly with our discussing cats, felines.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Did you, as you got to the door, after discussing various other things with her, turn to her and say, "I want to come out and visit you and your husband; you have a big stone fireplace and lots of cats"?
Mr. Matusow. Might have asked her if she had a stone fireplace, and I think we discussed the cats.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMlVniNISM 503
Mr. SoLTRwiNE. How did you know that she had a stone fireplace and a lot of cats?
- Mr. Matusow. Well, I knew she had cats, because she had cat hair on her clothing, and I am a cat fancier, and I have had similar cat hair on my own clothing.
Mr. SouRWiNE. Had anyone told you
Senator Welker. Just a moment ; is it not a fact that you said in your book — stated in your book— that she had 18 cats ?
Mr. ]\LvTusow. I said about 18 cats, and she had about 8 dogs.
Senator Welker. You are a cat lover — that attracted you to those people ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir. I once had 28 cats.
Senator Welker. Well
' Mr. Matusow. It was not in an apartment. It was out in New Mexico.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, did anyone tell you before this meeting that the Edmistons kept cats ?
Mr. SIatusow. No, sir. ■ Mr. SouRwiNE. You deduced it simply from the presence of cat hairs on Mrs. Edmiston's clothing?
Mr. ]\L4Tusow. Yes, sir.
Mr. SouRwiNE. How could you, from the presence of cat hairs on her clothing, deduce that she had lots of cats ?
Mr. ]Matusow. If you had 18 cats, I think your clothing would show the fact that you had more than 1 cat.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Is that the best answer you can give? _
Mr. JNIatusow. Sir, it is the only answer I can give, because I deduced it.
f Mr. SouRWiNE. Were there various shades and kinds of cat hair on ]Mrs. Edmiston's clothing that day ?
- Mr. ISIatusow. There must have been, because she had various shades and kinds of cats.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Now, did she have any fireplace stone on her clothing .that day?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I think Mrs. Edmiston said she lived in a log cabin down in Waynesville, Ohio. I presume that anyone who lived in a log cabin had a stone fireplace.
Mr. SouRwii^E. Are you testifying that you had discussed Mrs. Edmiston's log cabin with her before you mentioned the stone fire- place ? . Mr. Matusoav. My recollection is yes.
Mr. SouRw^XE. As a matter of fact, did you not mention the stone fireplace first before there had been any discussion of a fireplace or a log cabin ?
Mr. Matusow. Not to my recollection.
The Chairman. Mr. ISIatsusow, did you investigate Antioch Col- lege in Ohio ?
Mr. IVLatusow. I attempted to investigate it.
The Chairiman. By whom were you employed ?
Mr. IVIatusow. The Ohio Un-American Activities Commission.
The Chair]sl^n-. ^\Tien was that ?
Mr. Matusow. 1952 ; in the early part of the year.
The Chairman. Were you around the college much ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes.
504 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
The Chairman. Did you go into tlie dormitories ?
Mr. Matusow. On one occasion.
The Chairman". Yes, sir. Now, state whether or not you were accused of rifling students' wardrobes and effects.
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
The Chairman. In the dormitories ?
Mr. Matusow. No such accusation.
Tlie Chairman. You were never accused of that ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
The Chairman. You were never charged with that ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
Senator Daniel. Mr. Matusow, you mentioned a moment ago that you liad written a vindictive and false edition of your book.
Mr. Matusow^. Well, I had written a lot of vindictive and false material at one time.
Senator Daniel. Yes. How many editions of this book False AVitness did you write ?
Mr. Matusow. Nobody saw this.
Senator Daniel. Excuse me just a minute. How many editions did you write before you submitted this final edition to your publishers ?
Mr. Matusow. This is the only edition I have written — in two drafts. The other thing I was referring to had nothing to do with this book. It was just a conglomeration of notes and pages of more editorial comments than fact, and in that respect it was kind of vindictive. I was not basing what I had written prior to that, and which I did not show to anybody but destroyed, on fact but rather on my opinion and comments.
Senator Daniel. Well, they were notes for the book ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir; they were not. Everything in relation to that other document was destroyed. I burned it.
Senator Daniel. Well, just all I want to get was this — you brought it up a moment ago — you called it a vindictive edition, as I wrote it down here, of your book.
Mr. Matusow. I should not have said of this book, but of a book.
Senator Daniel, Of a book — when did you write that ?
Mr. Matusow. I wrote that, I guess it was September 1953, at least September or early October.
Senator Daniel. 1953 ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Senator Daniel. Did you write any other editions ?
Mr. Matusow. I do not want to confuse that with this present book because they are not the same.
Senator Daniel. You did that, in my mind.
Mr. Matusow. I confused it, and I would like to clarify the record on that.
Senator Daniel. Go ahead.
Mr, Matusow. I mean, they are not the same, and there should be no distinction — I mean, there should be a distinction between them.
Senator Daniel. I refer to your testimony on February 21 before this committee, on page 146, where I asked you this :
As I understand it, you have thoucht for some time that your publishers, Mr, Kalin and Mr. Cameron, are members of the Communist Party. Is that correct?
And you answered :
I had accused them of it, yes, sir.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 505
Now, Mr. Matusow, at one time you sincerely believed that Mr. Cameron and Mr. Kalm were members of the Communist Party ; did you not?
Mr. Matusow. Or Communist-front groups.
Senator Daniel. I asked you, did you or did you not at one time sincerely believe that your publishers, Mr. Kahn and Mr. Cameron, were members of the Communist Party ?
Mr. Matusow. In a broad sense, yes, sir, I did.
Senator Daniel. As a matter of fact, on page 147 of the hearing on the same day you testified to that same question. I will read the ques- tion:
And you sincerely thought they were members?
Mr. Matusow. I sincerely thought they were members at the time.
You so testified ; did you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir ; I did.
Senator Daniel. Was that the truth, to the best of your knowl- edge ?
Mr. Matusow. At the time — at the time — at one time I thought that they were Communists and Communist-front groups.
Senator Daniel. The only thing that I have not been satisfied about in connection with this is what has caused you to have any question about it or change your mind as to your belief that your publishers are members of the Communist Party?
Mr. Matusow. Well, it is quite simple, sir. I realized at one point that I was basing my belief upon statements made by myself and by individuals such as myself, who I believed were bearing false wit- ness, and that the accusations against Mr. Cameron and Mr. Kahn and others might be true — might not be true, but my belief was based on surmise and hearsay, and not on facts.
Senator Daniel. Well, it was based also on your investigation — just a moment
Mr. Matusow. All right.
Senator Daniel, So you will know what I am asking you.
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
Senator Daniel. It was based also on your investigation of Mr. Kahn, the kinds of books he wrote and how those books were spon- sored in the Communist bookshops, was it not ?
Mr. Matusow. Not really so, sir. It was based more on informa- tion obtained elsewhere. Of course, part of my decision came about — it was supported by, in some way, by the fact that he wrote books which I knew were sold in the Communist bookshops, but at one time in my life I considered every author whose book appeared in a Com- munist bookshop a Communist Party member.
Senator Daniel. That is not all that made you believe they were Communists ?
Mr. Matusow. That is what I was trying to say — I was trying to say.
Senator Daniel. That was not all, was it?
Mr. Matusow. No. sir. There was much more to it than that.
Senator Daniel. Much more to it?
Mr. Matusow. The false testimony that I believe other witnesses have given against these people.
Senator Daniel. You sincerely believed they were members of the Oommunist Party?
506 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. Right.
Senator Daniel. And the truth about it today is that you still be- lieve sincerely they are members of the Communist Party, do you not ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; I do not.
Senator Daniel. You do not?
Mr. Matusow. I have no opinion one way or the other.
Senator Daniel. You have no opinion one way or the other?
Mr. Matusow. As I say, sir, to clarify the record, they could be — I don't know — Communist or they don't necessarily liave to be Com- munists— they might not be Communists — I don't know. If they just happened to be people who for years have taken the position which maybe in 1935 started as a position supporting the New Deal admin- istration at that time, and have not moved from that basic position of the New Deal Democratic Party which many people have not moved from and today, because of that, are accused of being Com- munist, or
Senator Daniel. Mr. Matusow
The Chairman. Mr. Kahn was a candidate for Congress on the Progressive ticket in New York City, was he not ?
Mr. Matusow. That was not the Communist Party.
The Chairman. I said on the Progressive ticket — was he not?
Mr. Matusow. Right, sir, American Labor Party.
The Chairman. And not a Democrat?
Mr. Matusow. I did not say he was. I say they could have taken a position similar to the New Deal Democratic position.
Senator Daniel. Mr. Matusow, that is not responsive to my ques- tion. It makes no difference to you now whether they are Communists or not ?
Mr. Matusow. That is right, sir.
Senator Daniel. That is the truth about it, is it not ?
Mr. Matusow. I reiterate that I stated that in the record before.
Senator Daniel. You have no fear of the Communist Party being a dangerous instrumentality?
Mr. Matusow. I say there are dangerous groups — far more danger- ous groups than the Communist Party.
Senator Daniel. Therefore, even if they are members of the Com- munist Party publishing this book for the Communists, it makes no difference to you — is that not the truth about it?
Mr. Matusow. It does make a difference to me, sir. You know why.
Senator Daniel. Well, I just asked. Does it make a difference, "yes" or "no?"
Mr. Matusow. I would like to say yes, and tell you why — it is very brief — the reason is that if it is Simon & Schuster or Doubleday or another publisher, that published the book it would take the onus of Communist publishing off the book, and the book would have much more of an effect on the stability of what I believe is the stability of this country.
Senator Daniel. Wliat I am saying, though, is that if they are pub- lishing a book to serve the Communist cause, that would not bother you in the least ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, sir, the fact that they are publishing does not serve the Communist cause.
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 507
Senator Daniel. I said if that is the purpose, if they are members of the Communist Party, and the purpose of the publication of your book. False Witness, is to serve the Communist cause in any respect, that would not concern you at all, would it ?
Mr. Matusow. Your hypothesis is a little bit wrong.
The Chairman. Answer the question,
Mr. Matusow. It cannot be answered, sir. I cannot answer a ques- tion that is I believe based on that hypothesis.
Senator Daniel. I made it the hypothesis.
Mr. Matusow\ If I believe it is incorrect as a hypothesis, I could not say "yes" or "no".
Senator Daniel. It does not concern you that the men who are now publishing your book, whether they are members of the Communist Party or not, does it ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir ; I have no opinion one way or the other.
Senator Daniel. It does not concern you, either, whether most of the time Mr. Herb Tank has been a member of the Communist Party or not?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir; I have no opinion one way or another about
it- Senator Daniel. It does not concern you whether this book you
have published or that is going to be published is being published to
serve the Communist Party or not, does it ?
Mr. Matusow. I believe the book is serving the cause of truth
Senator Daniel. It does not concern
Mr, Matusow. In that respect, it does not concern me.
Senator Daniel. It does not concern you ?
Mr. Matusow. In that respect only.
Senator Daniel, I am reading here from a photostatic copy of your testimony before the Federal court in El Paso, Tex,, in the case of United States v, Clinton Jencks^ from page 482. You testified in that case, did you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Sir, I did. And I state now, because I am due to appear on the witness stand Monday
Senator Daniel. You have answered my question.
Mr. Matusow. All right, sir.
Senator Daniel. You said you did.
Mr. Matusow. I testified in the case.
Senator Daniel, That is all.
The Chairman, Proceed.
Senator Daniel, You were asked in that case as to whether or not you knew Craig Vincent and Jenny Vincent, were you not?
Mr. Matusow. I refuse to answer that question, sir, on the grounds of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Senator Daniel. Did you tell the court under oath in El Paso, Tex,, in the Jencks case that you met Craig and Jenny Vincent at a Com- munist affair in the Hotel Albert in New York City?
Mr, Matusow. I decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Senator Daniel. Now, Mr. Matusow, I will ask you without ref- erence to this trial in El Paso, whether or not you actually met Craig and Jenny Vincent at a Communist affair in the Hotel Albert in New York City?
508 STRATEGY AXD TACTICS OF WORLD COIMMUNISM
Mr. Mattjsow. I met them at the Hotel Albert. I did not know it was a Communist affair ; no, sir.
Senator Daniel. Did you know that they were members of the Com- munist Party at the time?
Mr. Matusow. I never knew them as Communists at any time.
Senator Daniel. Did you testify to the Federal court that you knew them to be members of the Communist Party and, if so, was that a true and correct answer ?
Mr. Matusow. I decline to answer that question, sir, on the grounds of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Senator Daniel. Did you give false testimony to the court in the case of Clinton Jencks ?
Mr. Matusow. Wait a minute.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Matusow. My counsel informs me that an answer to that would be a waiver. I decline to answer on the grounds of the tifth amendment to the Constitution, sir.
Senator Daniel. Do you intend to decline to answer all questions that are put to you as to whether or not you told the truth in this Jencks'. case in El Paso ?
Mr. Matusow. I will have to decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment of the Constitution, unless — I will consult with counsel. If I find that I am not — it does not constitute a waiver in relation to such testimony, I will answer your question, sir.
Senator Daniel. In other words, you will not now tell this com- mittee that you lied in your testimony against Clinton Jencks in El Paso?
Mr. Matusow. Excuse me, sir.
(Witness confers with counsel.)
Mr. Matusow. I will be in El Paso on Monday to testify. In rela- tion to your question, sir, I will have to decline to answer that question on the grounds of the fifth amendment to the Constitution.
Senator Daniel. That is all.
Mr. SouRwiNE. Mr. Matusow, you spoke a moment ago
The Chairman. I want to ask him some questions.
Mr. Matusow, during the past 30 days, how many nights have you spent with Herb Tank ?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, maybe 10, 15.
The Chairman. Ten or fifteen ?
Mr. Matusow. About that.
The Chairman. If Mr. Tank has testified under oath that he spent all but 8 nights with you, would his testimony be true or false?
Mr. Matusow. Oh, it could have been true, but I have not — at the time Mr. Tank testified I have not seen him in 5 days.
The Chairman. I asked you if he has testified that he has spent all but 8 nights with you on 30 days before last Saturday
Mr. Matusow. There is a different story.
The Chairman. Wait a minute, please, sir. Would that testimony be true or false ?
Mr. Matusow. Probably true.
The Chairman. Yes, sir. Probably true.
Well, the truth is, then, that he spent approximately 22 nights with jou of the 30 nights preceding last Saturday: is that right?
Mr. Matusow. Well, yes, sir ; preceding last Saturd«>-'
t-TT
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM 509
The Chairman. All riirlit. Xow, just wait a minute.
Mr. Matusow. Api)roxiinately so.
The Chaikmax. Just wait a minute.
On those other 8 nights, I Mant you to testify whether or not you spent those nights with Mr. Albert Kahn, who you allege is one of 3'our publishers ?
Mr. Matusow". I might have spent 1 or 2 nights with Mr. Kahn and his family ; yes, sir.
The Chairmax. If Mr. Kahn testified that you spent 8 nights with him, would that testimony be true or false ?
Mr. jSIatusoav. I don't think 8 nights of that 30 — I don't believe so. I don't know, sir. I did not keep a diary notation
The Chairmax. "\^"ell, you were^
Mr. Matusow" (continuing). "With me.
The Chairmax. How many nights in 30 nights preceding last Sat- urday did you spend by yourself ?
^Ir. Mati'sow. I do not believe I spent any by myself, but the nights away from ]\Ir. Tank or Mr. Kahn or Mr. Cameron — there have been nights, but I am not going to discuss where I spent my nights, other than that.
The Chairmax'. I am asking you the question, please, sir. You sjient those 30 nights — now do not punch your attorney under the table.
Mr. Matusow. I did not punch him.
The CiiAHntAX. 1 see what is Iiappening.
Mr. Matusow. Sir, 1 am getting myself in a more comfortable posi- tion.
The Chairmax'. I M-ant you to answer these questions now. You spent 30 nights — in fact, for 30 days — and either Mr. Tank, Mr. Kahn, or Mr. Cameron was with you every night, were they not ?
Mr. Matusow. Xo, sir.
The Chairmax. All right. Wliere else did you spend a night ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, if I tell the committee I won't ever be able to go back there. Nothing to do with — just a friend.
The Chair]\iax^. Well, now", the committee has sworn testimony that you were protected each one of those nights. I want the truth now. Where were you ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, I was not with the protector.
The Chairman. All right. Now, you answer my question : Where were you ?
Mr. Matusow. I was with a friend.
The Chairman. Wlio is that friend ?
Mr. Matusow. I forget that person's name.
The Chairman. No, sir ; who is that friend ? Now, I order you to testify.
Mr. ]VIatusow\ Well, sir, it is a little embarrassing.
Senator Welker. '\^niat is ?
Mr. Matusow. It gets a little embarrassing.
The Chairman. Come on and answer the q,uestion.
Mr. Matusow. Will the gentleman turn the television off ? I might answer the question.
The Chairman'. You have got that right.
Mr. Matusow. Just for this question. I don't want to embarrass this person ; I mean, it was just a lady friend.
510 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
The Chairman. Who is that friend ?
Mr. Matusow. Well, sir, I think I will have to stand hereof you want to cite me for contempt for defending the reputation of a lady, I will have to take that.
The Chairman. I do not think you are doing that.
Mr. Matusow. I am doing that.
The Chairman. I think you had a Communist bodyguard each of those nights, and we are trying to prove it.
Mr. Matusow. Sir ?
The Chairman. Where did you spend
Mr. Matusow. I am sorry; I am going to defend the reputation of this lady, if it means going to jail for contempt.
The Chairman. I am ordering you to testify.
Mr. Matusow. I will defend her reputation.
The Chairman. That is not your reason.
Mr. M.\Tusow. No — it is.
The Chairman. You are telling a falsehood.
Mr. Matusow. Sir, it is my reason.
The Chairman. You know that this committee has sworn testimony where you were those nights.
Mr. Matusow. Well, sir, you are talking about every night up until Saturday. Apparently Mr. Kahn and Mr. Tank were down here on Saturday — I could not have been with them.
The Chairman. I said 30 nights preceding last Saturday.
Mr. Matusow. I believe they left New York on Friday. I couldn't have been with them on Friday — they were here. They were on the all-night train.
The Chairman. Were you with a lady friend Friday night?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. Was that the only night ?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
The Chairman. Well, now, when was the other time ?
Mr. Matusow. Maybe Thursday night — I think I was alone.
The Chairman. Thursday night?
Mr. Matusow. That is without the company of Mr. Kahn or Mr. Tank.
The Chairman. All right. What other nights? Mr. Matusow. I don't recall specifically, sir.
The Chairman. What ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't recall specifically; 1 or 2 other nights in that period.
The Chairman. One or two other nights ?
Mr. Matusow. In that period ; yes, sir.
The Chairman. With the exception of 2 or 3 nights, you were with Tank or Kahn or Cameron ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir. I admit that.
The Chairman. Is that right?
Mr. IVIatusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You went to different hotels?
Mr. Matusow. On three occasions.
The Chairman. And different hotels?'
Mr. Matusow. On 4 nights, I believe.
The Chairman. Registered under assumed names, did you not?
STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD CORIMUNISM 511
Mr, ]VL\TUSOAV. On four occasions, correcting the galley proofs of my book. I registered under an assumed name in a hotel or motel. The rest of that time I had been at my own home or at the office, Cameron & Kahn.
The Chairman. You stayed at Mr. Tank's apartment several nights ?
Mr. Matusow. One night specifically.
The Chairman. Is it one night?
Mr, Matusow. One night that I recall.
The Chairman. Are you certain of that now ?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You swear you were at his apartment only one night?
Mr, Matusow. Spent the full night there, to my recollection, only one night.
The Chairman. Only one night?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. You met Mr. Tank about 30 days ago ?
Mr. Matusow. "Well, it was the latter part of January; so, 45 — maybe 45 days ago.
The Chairman. About 45 days ago?
Mr. Matusow. Yes.
The Chairman. And he has been your companion since that time ?
Mr. Matusow. On and off he has been with me.
The Chairman. You have known him, of course — you want to be frank with this committee, do you not?
Mr. Matusow. Yes, sir.
The Chairman. And you have known him as a member of the Communist Party, have you not ?
Mr, Matusow. No, sir.
The Chairman, How ?
Mr, Matusow, No, sir.
The Chairman. You have known him as a very active member of the Communist Party, have you not?
Mr. Matusow. No, sir.
The Chairman. How?
Mr. Matusow. No.
The Chairman, You have thought he was one of the strong-arm men of the Communist Party, have you not ?
Mr. Matusow. Never made any such accusation, sir.
The Chairman. I ask you the question, sir.
Mr. Matusow. No, sir, I never thought he was a strong-arm Communist.
The Chairman. Now, the nights that you were not with Mr. Kahn, Mr. Tank — wait a minute; answer my question — or Mr. Cameron, state whether or not you were with a member of the Communist Party on those nights.
Mr. Matusow. To my recollection on any of those nights, I was not with the gentleman whom you just mentioned, who
The Chairman. I said a member.
Mr. Matusow. I don't know of any Communist party who I was with.
The Chairman, I asked you if you were with a member of the Communist Party on those nights.
512 STRATEGY AND TACTICS OF WORLD COMMUNISM
Mr. Matusow. So far as I know, no, sir — I have not been with a member of the Communist Party.
The Chairman. Answer the question.
Wlio was the lady that you were with ?
Mr. Matusow. I am sorry, sir ; I am not going to tell you.
Senator Daniel. Did you spend the night with one of these women on Friday night, that you have testified about ?
Mr. Matusow. I recollect Friday night spending a night with somebody.
Senator Daniel. "WHio was not your wife ?
Mr. Matusow. I am not married, sir.
The Chairman. Was she married ?
Mr. Matusow. I don't know.
The Chairman. How ?
Mr. Matusow. I did not say I had any relationship with somebody — might have